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the next morning I get a phone call from a\h
supervisor with L.A Center I'm not going to\h\h

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use his name but he basically tells me that he\h
made a copy of the radar tape for me and sent\h\h

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me the copy of the radar tape and the reason\h
why he said later they had a meeting with the\h\h

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higher Echelon or I'll call it the xlc or\h
whatever and after they came out of that\h\h

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meeting emergency meeting all the data around\h
the tape was corrupted but I had a copy of it

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welcome to merge I'm Ryan Graves today we're\h
joined by Mark Halsey Mark's been a pilot since\h\h

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he's been 16 years old and flown everything from\h
seaplanes to corporate Jets to the F-18 Hornet\h\h

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is over 12 000 flight hours and is a\h
designated pilot examiner by the FAA\h\h

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Mark uh welcome thanks for joining me oh thanks\h
for having me appreciate it um if you wouldn't\h\h

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mind uh would you mind introducing yourself and\h
just telling us a little bit about um why you're\h\h

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here today uh yeah my name is Mark Halsey I'm a\h
retired Marine F-18 pilot and a commercial pilot\h\h

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now for a private Tech billionaire and I saw some\h
pretty interesting things a few months back and\h\h

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that's why I'm here very cool so that was while\h
you were flying over the United States that was\h\h

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just off the coast of California at uh forty seven\h
thousand feet in the middle of the night okay 12\h\h

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midnight very cool all right we'll get back to\h
that but uh maybe we could tell me about uh when\h\h

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you joined the Navy what year was it uh joined\h
the Marine Corps back in 1987 as in a list of\h\h

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marine yeah I went to meteorology School became\h
a meteorologist the Marine Corps and then I got\h\h

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stationed Iwakuni Japan and when I got back my\h
second Duty station was Connie rebei Hawaii and\h\h

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I started flying helicopters there and finished\h
off my commercial rating and flew helicopter\h\h

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tours on the side while I was based in Hawaii so\h
you did helicopters and fixed Wing yes very cool\h\h

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um well I got out of the Marine Corps went in the\h
reserves and I stayed in Hawaii for about five\h\h

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years flying health copter tours okay and then one\h
day I just decided I'm not going to do it anymore\h\h

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I want to fly Jets so I quit my job I went to\h
Amber riddle and I did two years of college and or\h\h

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four years of college in about a year and a half\h
so I had the highest credits ever attempted I had\h\h

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42 college credits in one semester oh wow that's\h
crazy yeah well it took a lot of uh Johnny Walker\h\h

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Red Label wrapped around term papers handing it\h
to the instructors but I got through everybody got\h\h

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through their all retired military so they got me\h
through there um I went to uh officer candidates\h\h

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course finished there and went to the basic school\h
and then did the same path you did we went to uh\h\h

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API down in Pensacola Florida I went up in Corpus\h
Christi for primary and since I had so much Flight\h\h

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Training I had more helicopter and fixed Wing\h
time than any of the instructors I was flying\h\h

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with so they put together a program where each of\h
my flights counted for two and a half flights and\h\h

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that way it was good and bad because if I did\h
good I got one above would equal two and a half\h\h

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aboves but if I got it below one below in the\h
entire training session I wouldn't be a fighter\h\h

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pilot so yeah graduated there went to Kingsville\h
and then from there went to selective hornets\h\h

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and went to the fleet awesome uh what Coast were\h
you on uh I was on the uh East Coast for most of\h\h

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the time okay and so you guys are flying off the\h
the Eastern Seaboard yeah I was off of uh out of\h\h

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um Beaufort South Carolina Marine Corps\h
station there okay and then we did a lot\h\h

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of debts down in Key West and we came out to\h
the West Coast and out to Yuma for debts and\h\h

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things like that any combat deployments no just\h
what I was listed when I was enlisted I was over\h\h

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in Desert Shield as a storm as a as a industry\h
medicine yes as a ground Personnel I actually\h\h

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worked with the Harrier units at the time loading\h
uh Napalm and cluster bombs on the Heritage Air\h\h

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Base did that motivate you to to want to fly Jets\h
oh yeah because I was already a helicopter pilot\h\h

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at the time yeah and I really loved the jet I\h
really love the Harrier until I learned more\h\h

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about it but it was really it was a really cool\h
jet really cool concept yeah but uh coming back\h\h

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they used to show us motivational videos that\h
come back and they show these videos of their\h\h

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um doing their missions yeah they uh oh the guys\h
would come back and yeah okay yeah all the ground\h\h

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guys they put it up on the toes and they put the\h
videos up on the tents and we get to watch what\h\h

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our work was over there was pretty cool very cool\h
yeah that's exciting nothing really motivates to\h\h

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actually seeing the work that gets done it's hard\h
to communicate you know you film it or you know\h\h

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like in the new Top Gun movie you get to see it\h
but you know what they don't show you is like all\h\h

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the mental work that goes into it the tactics the\h
things you're looking at the scan um yeah that's\h\h

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really cool well the pilot gets all the glory all\h
the work behind the scenes is all done by us by\h\h

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the way absolutely that's right yep loading the\h
weapons uh loading the Jets I mean God for being\h\h

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on aircraft carrier the the folks that are out on\h
the top on the surface and the gulf are exposed to\h\h

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extreme temperatures while they have all their\h
safety gear on so yeah those guys uh about an\h\h

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18-hour days to make those jets fly absolutely\h
it probably gets all the glory absolutely yep\h\h

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um so when you were flying off the Eastern\h
sheep board um or really anywhere else in\h\h

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your career did you have any weird experiences\h
flying that you didn't have an explanation for\h\h

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yeah they're one that really comes to mind and\h
I it didn't I had flashbacks on it after what\h\h

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happened off the coast of California but what\h
happened off of Beaufort was we were out doing\h\h

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um bvr intercepts and we got on visual range yeah\h
I'm sorry Beyond visual range intercepts um and\h\h

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we're on cap and we got a call from c-lord and\h
they asked us this is after right after 9 11 and\h\h

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they asked us if we can intercept an aircraft that\h
wasn't talking they had picked up an aircraft so\h\h

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see Lord like the radar uh control facility that\h
would that looks out over the ocean essentially\h\h

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and so they were saying hey someone something's\h
either coming toward or stationary out there that\h\h

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shouldn't be there yeah they were so an aircraft\h
was coming in the adiz there uh error defense yeah

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is it introduction

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defense identification Zone probably uh figure\h
it out it's been a long time uh so we went ahead\h\h

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and you know being fighter pilots were like heck\h
yeah man this is what we're trying to do so we\h\h

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went into viewing a hornet pilot and we wanted a\h
single Target track we found this guy sdt him and\h\h

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um we jumped he was uh down around 5000\h
feet from what we recall we were up at 25\h\h

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000 Vehicles standard for doing bbr intercepts\h
so um we found him uh we push down to below 5000\h\h

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so our Radars were looking up because we\h
didn't want to be scrambled with the you\h\h

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know looking down for ground clutter and\h
what radar was this the apg-73 at the time\h\h

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um so we got down we sct'd him and then uh we\h
went in for the vid visual identification and then\h\h

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probably at about five miles prior to intercept\h
um the track stopped on our radar it just came\h\h

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to a halt and there was no closure rate anymore\h
and then it just maintained the same distance as\h\h

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we were closing we were over Mach 1 I mean we're\h
an afterburner in the blower and going over Mach\h\h

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One trying to intercept this thing wow yeah and it\h
just stopped and it stayed there relative to your\h\h

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aircraft relative to our well on the radar because\h
we never got visual signing of it it just stayed\h\h

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there and the next thing I know it just started\h
moving away from us and it just basically flew off\h\h

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the screen so it would have had to have matched\h
your air speed at least to say stationary on your\h\h

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radar correct if I understand this well absolutely\h
but what really got us was the closure rate that\h\h

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we were I mean we were have a massive closure\h
rate on this thing and then it just stopped almost\h\h

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instantly on the radar wow and then but it stayed\h
there for a short period of time and then it just\h\h

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disappeared off the radar and we thought nothing\h
of it you know because we never experienced\h\h

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anything like that well maybe it was a glitch you\h
know I mean you flew you know what happens you get\h\h

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glitches you get ghost ghost images um and then uh\h
sealer came back and said you know they they don't\h\h

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have track of it anymore so we just came back\h
and it just came became a debrief item yeah we\h\h

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never even talked about it it's not even something\h
we brought up in the old Club afterwards it just\h\h

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came a DB a deeper if item because it was cool hey\h
that's our mission you know we get to we're going\h\h

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to get to go and addict something it was awesome\h
but that turned out to be nothing did you talk to\h\h

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any of your squad roommates about it yeah other\h
people that had similar instances where they see\h\h

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them on the radar and they'd go to run them down\h
and the thing would disappear or run off the radar\h\h

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but it wasn't really you know people to really\h
talk about it too much outside the Squadron or\h\h

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outside of a debrief you know we didn't really\h
talk about it much in the ready rooms it was\h\h

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just part of a debrief item usually why do you\h
think that was you know I I don't want to say\h\h

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it was lack of education on it but I just think\h
that you know being a fighter pilot especially\h\h

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in a training the training capacity you've\h
got too much other stuff thinking about to to\h\h

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put your mental ability to focus on hey what was\h
going on out there it's basically hey this is what\h\h

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we did you know you go through your debrief and\h
that's all you really care about everybody's just\h\h

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trying to get the get the X for the day exactly\h
so nobody really cared about it yep we've talked\h\h

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about it but like I said it was a debrief item\h
never even thought about it total years later\h\h

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did you ever think about uh contacting the\h
radar facility or following up with them in\h\h

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any sense not at that time not at all and they\h
never reached out to us either you know uh HUD\h\h

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tapes were basically just thrown back in the uh\h
in the S2 and the and the uh recital and they\h\h

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just recycle them as you know with the bricks\h
and everything they just recycle them yeah we\h\h

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wouldn't keep anything yep interesting which is a\h
shame nowadays you know it would have been nice to\h\h

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have some of those radar tapes to analyze yeah\h
you would think if it was important enough to\h\h

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send a a military aircraft to go intercept\h
and I assume you didn't have any weapons or\h\h

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anything on your aircraft no we had catam nines\h
Captivate mines as you know yep so non-explosive\h\h

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um IR seeking close range missiles correctly\h
but they these are not designed to leave the\h\h

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aircraft because it's just for training purposes\h\h

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um okay um so they just kind of sent you out there\h
to ID it um now I would think that since it was in\h\h

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the the eight is it was worth investigation at\h
that point that it would be worth following up\h\h

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on that and seeing where those came from or if\h
there is some type of problem on our Coastline\h\h

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well you know thinking back on what I found was\h
what was weird was why did they send two unarmed\h\h

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fighter planes to go when they could have sent\h
launched somebody out of Langley or somewhere\h\h

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f-15s or something that could have done an\h
intercept or I think the F-22 Raptor was\h\h

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operating out of there also so if it was some kind\h
of thread I don't know if they considered it a\h\h

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threat since it was low altitude at five thousand\h
around 5000 feet but you know that was something\h\h

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that was brought up could have been just maybe\h
like a Cessna or something do you think [Music]\h\h

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now with jado bottles on it on the wings no\h
there's no there's a I don't know what it was\h\h

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I'd love to be able to tell you I'd love to have\h
an explanation on what it was but like I said it\h\h

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would turn into a debrief item and never really\h
even thought about it until after my my encounter\h\h

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years later did anyone in your command structure\h
get wind of it yeah oh yeah everybody I mean we\h\h

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told people about what happened but nobody\h
cared any any thoughts to a a safety report\h\h

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and I'm not trying to like say why don't you\h
didn't do more but because I completely get it\h\h

129
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yeah absolutely not there was no safety stand\h
there was nothing nothing it basically became\h\h

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a debrief item and you know somebody would say\h
ask what happened out there somebody else would\h\h

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see something and but nobody really talked\h
about it because it wasn't anything that we\h\h

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really cared about if you could have changed\h
that scenario how would you do it differently

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do you think it would be like a squadron level\h
reporting you think well there would have been\h\h

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occasion with the tower perhaps you know on the\h
radar it would have been great if we would have\h\h

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been able to keep all radar tapes and have\h
them copied for for further analysis kind\h\h

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of like a correlation after effect between\h
what the radar facility was seeing and what\h\h

137
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the the pilot we're seeing in real time that\h
would have been nice it would also be nice\h\h

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for to have a uh all Pilots meeting um through\h
the mag Marine aircraft group just to tell the\h\h

139
00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:07,200
pilots hey if you encounter something out there\h
you know some kind of Reporting System would\h\h

140
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,680
have been great just to let anybody else\h
know this is what we're seeing out there\h\h

141
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that would have been that would have been a really\h
uh helpful thing to have no no Tams or anything\h\h

142
00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,740
though yeah no nothing at all it was never even\h
mentioned never like I've never seen anything\h\h

143
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flying in the military that where anybody's\h
ever said hey we're we're seeing unidentified\h\h

144
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aircraft out there yeah what year was this this\h
happened in about 2000 and two I believe okay\h\h

145
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roughly somewhere around there too is the best of\h
my recollection somewhere around there interesting\h\h

146
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when Sea Lord reached out and asked us to do a\h
a visual ID intercept because they were they had\h\h

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a Target out there that wasn't talking to them\h
or squawking squawking is squawking my friend\h\h

148
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or Foe yeah yeah first of all like a transponder\h
so every aircraft is especially coming into the\h\h

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United States from the adiz is given a specific\h
transponder code so they know what aircraft it is\h\h

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and this didn't have a transponder code once it's\h
blocking uh low altitude it wasn't relatively fast\h\h

151
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um coming towards the coast of the United States\h
so when we intercepted it that's why we're like\h\h

152
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this is great you know we jumped out of 25 000\h
feet with the blowers and went down below it\h\h

153
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so our Radar's looking up instead of down into\h
the water and uh we got within probably about\h\h

154
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five miles like I said and it just stopped\h
on our radar and the thing about it is we\h\h

155
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did have a TD box around it you did so yeah\h
when we were in sdt we had a TD box around it\h\h

156
00:13:36,540 --> 00:13:41,640
did you have it on your radar before you went into\h
stt which for those that may not beware it's just\h\h

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kind of a more concentrated radar mode that's\h
apg-73 could get into so did you have to really\h\h

158
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like Target it to like get enough energy there to\h
see it or was it just kind of on your radar no we\h\h

159
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uh they told us where it was so once we committed\h
uh I'm gonna have a hard time remember terminology\h\h

160
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it's been so many years but basically they gave us\h
uh I believe our we were using Vegas as a uh as a\h\h

161
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waypoint right for home so they as our main point\h
so they were giving us intercepts off of Vegas to\h\h

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do this intercept and then um we picked it up on\h
our radar we went started looking down scanning\h\h

163
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down and looking and the two two bar four whatever\h
it was the concentrated one of them once we hit it\h\h

164
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we went to sdt on it and then we locked it up and\h
that's when we jumped out of out of 25 000 feet\h\h

165
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and just screamed down to the water and it was a\h
race to know who was going to be down who's going\h\h

166
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:39,000
to be the shooter who the vid eyeballing shooter\h
right um and then we ran to intercept these guys\h\h

167
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and like I said it at about five miles um it just\h
stopped on the radar just completely stopping\h\h

168
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when that happened what was the relative\h
aspect well the where if you remember on\h\h

169
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um radar on the apg-73 the reason why you jumped\h
into the notch is because the dot the radar if you\h\h

170
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jump in the notch you disappear right because if\h
there's nothing moving so that was another that\h\h

171
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was another question that popped out like well how\h
could that be if it's just sitting on the radar\h\h

172
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but because radar typically they are reflecting\h
energy off of moving objects absolutely um so if\h\h

173
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it's saying completely stationary relative to you\h
know the aircraft that would be more difficult to\h\h

174
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see so it's it's interesting that you continue to\h
see it absolutely and then it moved away from us\h\h

175
00:15:21,180 --> 00:15:27,060
just move right off the screen was it showing a\h
Target aspect could you kind of tell your relative\h\h

176
00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:31,320
oh yeah it had an aspect I absolutely had an\h
aspect Vector on it we were right out I mean\h\h

177
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we're going right forward we want to emerged with\h
it we're coming right for the merge oh yeah we\h\h

178
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were doing the eyeball shooter eyeball and so yeah\h
and then you just never got there right because it\h\h

179
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never got there because you were heading the lease\h
right well I mean we put a direct intercept on it\h\h

180
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yeah I mean it was coming we were going right\h
down the pipe at it and it stopped interesting\h\h

181
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and it just flew off from us and then we never\h
thought anything about it like okay it's gone the\h\h

182
00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:01,080
target the TD box I remember started flashing and\h
the thing just disappeared it was one of the Flash\h\h

183
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,960
and then it yeah did it was there any altitude\h
change that you remember absolutely zero altitude\h\h

184
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,220
change okay so it's the same altitude the only\h
thing that changed was the aspect Vector of it\h\h

185
00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:15,120
right it came out and turned around and went away\h
but it didn't remember on the right I don't know\h\h

186
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,180
if we could talk about this but remember on the\h
radar it shows you the aspect Vector of the Target\h\h

187
00:16:18,180 --> 00:16:24,540
right yep it's got the that never that never\h
changed that aspect Vector never changed which\h\h

188
00:16:24,540 --> 00:16:29,340
was really strange okay so it was pointing towards\h
you towards us yep and so you know what that would\h\h

189
00:16:29,340 --> 00:16:34,620
represent is you coming nose and nose with that\h
object uh and then it it essentially went in\h\h

190
00:16:34,620 --> 00:16:40,020
reverse while that Target aspect was still pointed\h
at you yes wow that's really strange absolutely so\h\h

191
00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:45,000
yeah that is that is very interesting when we\h
were seeing the objects off the east coast in\h\h

192
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the in the 20 you know 14 time frame I could\h
recognize the the object on the radar because\h\h

193
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they we have the target aspect and now this is\h
in the ABG 79 and we would see the target aspect\h\h

194
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but it would move and normally in an aircraft you\h
know it's putting along and you and you see that\h\h

195
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,980
Target aspect move smooth just like the aircraft\h
is moving essentially but this one would be very\h\h

196
00:17:07,980 --> 00:17:14,160
Jagged or jumpy it would kind of like skip around\h
and it would on average seem to be flowing in a\h\h

197
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,820
direction based off of that Target aspect so\h
it'd be moving in this general direction but\h\h

198
00:17:17,820 --> 00:17:22,500
the target aspect would still kind of be moving\h
around because of that jerky Target aspect that's\h\h

199
00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:25,980
how I could look on the radar and be like that's\h
probably one of those things you know that we've\h\h

200
00:17:25,980 --> 00:17:30,960
been seeing and because of that the frees up the\h
target aspect that's even more interesting to me I\h\h

201
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,880
think because that means it's I don't know what\h
that means I don't either yeah I don't either\h\h

202
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,580
yeah just some like I said there's a lot of\h
like you call them radar anomalies you call\h\h

203
00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:46,680
it whatever you want but the fact that we weren't\h
able to get a visual ID on it is what really sucks\h\h

204
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:53,520
but you know a little five miles you know that's\h
that's not too far away nope and you had the the\h\h

205
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:58,740
TD box so you knew where to look uh oh yeah it's\h
right in the HUD yep right in the HUD yep because\h\h

206
00:17:58,740 --> 00:18:04,920
you're coming nose on and that's the position I've\h
been in in the um with the jehemics joint helmet\h\h

207
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,840
mounted queuing system so I had did you ever fly\h
no that was way before my time so I had you know\h\h

208
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,100
pretty much all the same tools but then there's\h
the helmet as well which really just plays the\h\h

209
00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:19,440
role of the HUD when I look away from it so if I'm\h
looking at the HUD there's nothing on my visor and\h\h

210
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,300
if I look away from the HUD now that information\h
that was on the HUD is now on my visor so it kind\h\h

211
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:28,680
of moves with me and when you're coming up to that\h
merge your nose on and it would be in your HUD\h\h

212
00:18:29,220 --> 00:18:36,000
and then as that that merge consummates uh that\h
person the the relative velocity takes off right\h\h

213
00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:42,120
um and and that box kind of moves up and past or\h
however however you actually merge with it and I\h\h

214
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:46,080
so I would see the TD box on the objects we were\h
seeing and it would be right in front just like\h\h

215
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:51,120
yours was and I would then it would eventually\h
come pass on the actual merge itself and nothing\h\h

216
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,320
was there we couldn't see anything but we still\h
see it on the flare we still see it on the radar\h\h

217
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,980
and we can even Circle back and still see it they\h
didn't just disappear when we merged with them\h\h

218
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,440
um and we didn't obviously have the fuel or\h
anything to continuously do that but so yeah\h\h

219
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,420
but you're never visually I personally was not\h
able to visually see it over time you know people\h\h

220
00:19:09,420 --> 00:19:14,580
in my Squadron other squadrons would visually\h
see that and it seemed to happen when um it was\h\h

221
00:19:14,580 --> 00:19:19,080
unintentional in a sense when we specifically\h
like hey let's go check this thing out at least\h\h

222
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,040
for me right I never saw one and I did that 100\h
of the time and I know other Squad roommates\h\h

223
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:29,460
that were in the same position um and I hope to\h
interview some of them about this but there are\h\h

224
00:19:29,460 --> 00:19:34,200
others that were surprised and had near midairs\h
with these objects and they were able to visually\h\h

225
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,820
see them so when you had them come down your\h
aircraft what was your how close were they to you\h\h

226
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,760
uh within 50 feet is our best estimate for one of\h
the first times we saw and you couldn't so there\h\h

227
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,680
were they were visually I'm saying the one they\h
visually saw was about 50 feet away how about you\h\h

228
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,980
were they visually personally when I came to\h
the merge you know you know trying to respect\h\h

229
00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:57,960
the 500 foot safety bubble essentially um and you\h
know that's very close I mean I should be able to\h\h

230
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:03,060
see a bird you know oh absolutely um yeah so we\h
weren't seeing anything yeah and the difference\h\h

231
00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:09,000
in ours was it we would never let us get close\h
to it when the thing just stopped and then flew\h\h

232
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,900
away from us and they were able to get close to it\h
which is really weird turn away right like there\h\h

233
00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:18,120
was no like there was no turn aspect there was\h
nothing a thing just stopped on the radar just\h\h

234
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:23,280
completely stopped in the radar and then moved\h
off straight ahead straight away not in an angle\h\h

235
00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:30,060
not any other directional ASP the no aspect change\h
no altitude Delta nothing it just moved away from\h\h

236
00:20:30,060 --> 00:20:35,400
us in the same direction we were traveling this is\h
this is interesting right so it was on your radar\h\h

237
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,900
and the target aspect was facing you and what that\h
means is like essentially that's representative of\h\h

238
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:45,780
an aircraft just coming at you trenches on the\h
long flying nose to nose at you and then what we\h\h

239
00:20:45,780 --> 00:20:49,980
typically expect to see if one of these aircraft\h
was going to move it would essentially turn right\h\h

240
00:20:49,980 --> 00:20:54,180
like you would see it turn through 180 degrees\h
and essentially fly in the opposite direction\h\h

241
00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:59,280
right we do that all the time right we call it\h
various things but we fly away to you know try\h\h

242
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,860
to run away from missiles or enemies and things\h
of that nature um the fact that the target aspect\h\h

243
00:21:04,860 --> 00:21:11,040
didn't change is is interesting to me because we\h
had a case off the coast of Jacksonville Florida\h\h

244
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:16,260
which is very close to the area and it's not\h
too far at all it's just south it's in between\h\h

245
00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:21,120
the two where the gimbal was videotaped and where\h
we're having the the daily issues off of Virginia\h\h

246
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:26,520
Beach it's right in the middle of those two right\h
absolutely yeah so when we saw the gimbal object\h\h

247
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:32,100
we saw on our situational awareness page and\h
that's a God's eye view of everything that's\h\h

248
00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:36,900
happening did you have that page when you were\h
flying absolutely and so the gimbal object when\h\h

249
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:43,440
we observed its movement on the essay page it\h
simply went in One Direction and just like what\h\h

250
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,980
you described no turn radius or anything\h
it just simply went in the other direction\h\h

251
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:56,220
um the target aspect in this case on this radar\h
perhaps ABG 79 was able to see the stuttering of\h\h

252
00:21:56,220 --> 00:22:01,560
the target aspect I wonder since you were able to\h
essentially zoom in with your radar with the AVG\h\h

253
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:07,860
73 so you were putting more energy into that piece\h
of the sky you were able to see these objects\h\h

254
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,860
perhaps when the target aspect didn't change\h
and it went in the opposite direction maybe it\h\h

255
00:22:13,860 --> 00:22:19,140
performed the same type of vertical term that the\h
gimbal object you know it probably could have uh\h\h

256
00:22:19,140 --> 00:22:24,000
you know if you think about in layman's terms it's\h
like somebody two cars doing a head-on collision\h\h

257
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,740
right and all of a sudden the car you're you're\h
getting ready to run and head on just basically\h\h

258
00:22:28,740 --> 00:22:34,740
is going in the uh going in the same direction\h
180 degrees opposite direction instantaneously so\h\h

259
00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:39,720
aircraft as you know can't do that only aircraft\h
that can do that are like helicopters but\h\h

260
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:44,220
helicopters can't fly that fast right they're\h
limited to about 180 knots I think the fastest\h\h

261
00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:50,460
one of the world's like 210 knots or something\h
um we're going you know Mach 1 enter to intercept\h\h

262
00:22:50,460 --> 00:22:57,060
this and it's the closure rate on it was well over\h
Mach 1 on a closure rate and there's nothing out\h\h

263
00:22:57,060 --> 00:23:00,660
there that could have done that do you remember\h
what it was I don't remember what the closure\h\h

264
00:23:00,660 --> 00:23:04,680
rate was just too long ago but I know I was over\h
Mach 1 on the internet so it was coming in at you\h\h

265
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,540
at some you know velocity oh absolutely got it\h
I mean the closure rate was pretty darn quick\h\h

266
00:23:10,620 --> 00:23:13,500
um and then if it's just a stop\h
instantaneously I know if I were to\h\h

267
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:17,460
stop going Mach 1 instantaneously I wouldn't be\h
here today I'd be dead yeah right it's probably\h\h

268
00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:21,300
like jumping off the Golden Golden Gate Bridge\h
and hitting the water and like concrete you'd\h\h

269
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:26,100
be dead your organs rip apart but it just\h
literally stopped right away it didn't\h\h

270
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:34,260
you know when you're asking about uh velocity\h
intercepts what I remember from that day was it\h\h

271
00:23:34,260 --> 00:23:40,380
didn't slow down we didn't see it slow down yeah\h
at all it just stopped and just stayed there wow\h\h

272
00:23:40,380 --> 00:23:46,740
and then continued off the other other direction\h
and for and you think about this for an object and\h\h

273
00:23:46,740 --> 00:23:51,540
you know this is a fighter pilot for an object to\h
go from stationary to greater than Mach 1 to run\h\h

274
00:23:51,540 --> 00:23:58,320
away especially I mean it would take something\h
like it would take some kind of missile um uh\h\h

275
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:04,620
like an uh amram missile or something you know\h
something yeah how an aircraft to run away right\h\h

276
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,060
and have that those altitudes you're not going\h
to be speeding up very quickly unless you're\h\h

277
00:24:09,060 --> 00:24:13,740
descending or doing anything not around 5000 feet\h
I mean that air is so thick there's there's no way\h\h

278
00:24:13,740 --> 00:24:18,660
I mean you can't even you can't even hit the you\h
got to do the Rakowski climb even on a part to\h\h

279
00:24:18,660 --> 00:24:24,180
make Mach 1 right yep remember that yep so that's\h
a climb at least in the Charlie where you actually\h\h

280
00:24:24,180 --> 00:24:30,060
have to level off every so often you regain speed\h
to climb at an optimal fuel rate in the F-18 or in\h\h

281
00:24:30,060 --> 00:24:35,820
the uh the Super Hornet uh the newer variant of\h
the the the charlie delta models uh our vatoski\h\h

282
00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:41,040
climb is essentially just a steady rate climb at\h
a fixed pitch slightly different yeah we would\h\h

283
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:46,860
take off we would take off I did a lot of red air\h
so I would always enter uh I'd always be the deck\h\h

284
00:24:46,860 --> 00:24:52,080
launch intercept right for trainers so so that's\h
being pretending to be the bad guys for for the\h\h

285
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,820
the blue Air the friendly Fighters your squad\h
roommates or other squadrons absolutely so you\h\h

286
00:24:56,820 --> 00:25:00,660
take off and we'd get up to about eight or ten\h
thousand feet and then you nose over hit Mach\h\h

287
00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:05,460
1 and then you maintain Mach One to climb\h
so that was our super horn could not climb\h\h

288
00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:10,620
Vermont yeah that's for sure yeah at least with\h
the external tank on and everything else so yeah\h\h

289
00:25:10,620 --> 00:25:15,240
this is that's some certainly some interesting\h
Behavior would you expect any other assets that\h\h

290
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:21,120
we had in 2002 to behave like that I mean of\h
course helicopters drones perhaps there's no\h\h

291
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:26,220
drones can't fly that fast it's impossible right\h
and even if drones could fly that fast you'd see\h\h

292
00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:30,840
an aspect change if they were going to turn yep\h
right stream you'd see it and it was in 2000 yeah\h\h

293
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,560
they didn't have any kind of drones or anything\h
that would have done at that time there's not even\h\h

294
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:40,440
I mean even the F-22 Raptor uh well first of all\h
we wouldn't have seen him on radar right 22 Raptor\h\h

295
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,840
uh they wouldn't there's no way because that thing\h
we would have seen him turn and um could they have\h\h

296
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:51,300
ran away from us oh absolutely you know that but\h
we've ever seen them we'd have seen them turn and\h\h

297
00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:55,320
the Sea Lord wouldn't have sent us out there to\h
intercept it either that's true right absolutely\h\h

298
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,160
they would have known he was out there how far off\h
the coast was it again uh it was right by the adiz\h\h

299
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:04,140
so you know just over about 12 months 14 15 miles\h
off the coast is what I believe was that actually\h\h

300
00:26:04,140 --> 00:26:09,720
in your working areas yeah to actually in the\h
whiskey area it was yeah absolutely interesting\h\h

301
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:16,440
yeah well how about we skip ahead a little bit\h
um maybe we can talk a little bit if you don't\h\h

302
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,400
mind just kind of provide a little background\h
about what your flying career looks like now\h\h

303
00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:26,880
yeah a little bit you know I retired from the\h
Marine Corps I got went to work for I've been\h\h

304
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:34,680
always flying Tech billionaires for these big\h
companies and then um I have uh I flew for a\h\h

305
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:41,520
bunch of the big guys up in the bay Silicon\h
Valley uh 737s typed in 737s and multiple\h\h

306
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:50,220
Gulf streams citations uh whole single multi\h
and helicopter ATP ratings uh CFI double I uh\h\h

307
00:26:50,220 --> 00:26:55,140
just became a designated palette examiner for\h
the FAA so which means I can give Pilots their\h\h

308
00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:59,160
uh people their pilot's license go out and give\h
them check rides and actually issue Pilots ratings\h\h

309
00:27:00,180 --> 00:27:04,080
um have an aeronautical science degree of\h
meteorology and communications degree from\h\h

310
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:11,700
remember riddle or nautical University uh attended\h
the Aviation safety accident investigation with\h\h

311
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:18,840
the Marine Corps and Navy or through the Navy down\h
in Pensacola yeah it was great great course yeah\h\h

312
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,160
it's very good Training I served under General\h
trotman and done multiple investigations of\h\h

313
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,380
different things like when we talked about at\h
the F-18 Hornet uh dropping a bomb on a on a\h\h

314
00:27:28,380 --> 00:27:36,000
man Tower down in in Australia wow so I've got a\h
lot of experience in aviation assets and multiple\h\h

315
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:41,220
aircraft I mean I've flyed multiple aircraft to\h
this day um maybe that's why your clients trust\h\h

316
00:27:41,220 --> 00:27:50,400
you I hope uh and I actually have uh I fought with\h
my identical I have an identical twin brother yeah\h\h

317
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,720
he was uh he was a marine White House Marine\h
so him and I fly together right now so we're\h\h

318
00:27:54,720 --> 00:28:00,660
I think we're the only twins uh who actually work\h
together flying for a company anywhere interesting\h\h

319
00:28:00,660 --> 00:28:07,500
yeah we had two twins in uh Meridian Mississippi\h
when I was instructor there uh for the T45 Goss\h\h

320
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,220
hop we had two twin students and they split them\h
into the two different squadrons I still think\h\h

321
00:28:11,220 --> 00:28:16,140
it was some type of test but I don't know how do\h
you know they were swapping like yeah exactly as\h\h

322
00:28:16,140 --> 00:28:20,340
good an instrument or you know you have any any\h
brother swapping stories you'd like to share oh\h\h

323
00:28:20,340 --> 00:28:26,160
no not a bus time okay there we go we had some\h
fun growing up yeah we've had a lot of fun but\h\h

324
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:31,080
well my my brother has to wear a goatee so the\h
boss oh yeah oh he's the evil twin then yeah\h\h

325
00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:36,360
yeah he wears a goatee so my boss can tell\h
us apart instantly as soon as he sees us\h\h

326
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:40,920
cool yeah that's funny yeah a lot of a lot of fun\h
flying with him um but yeah that's pretty much my\h\h

327
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,440
Aviation career I mean I'm still flying today um\h
I still fly today for multiple companies to do a\h\h

328
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:52,980
lot of contract work I've been hearing from\h
a lot of commercial pilots um that they have\h\h

329
00:28:52,980 --> 00:28:57,600
been seeing things over the continental United\h
States or the the western coast between Hawaii\h\h

330
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:04,380
um and what they've been seeing at least what I've\h
been communicating with and of course I love we're\h\h

331
00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:08,160
gonna hear what you have to say but I've been\h
hearing other Pilots talk about lights up in the\h\h

332
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,600
sky uh maybe they're in orbit maybe they're right\h
above the aircraft it's a little difficult to tell\h\h

333
00:29:13,740 --> 00:29:17,460
um my first thought is perhaps you know\h
it's starlink or things of that nature\h\h

334
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,500
um but your story I understand these objects are\h
moving away is that really aren't consistent with\h\h

335
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:28,140
that uh but yeah what did you see and was it\h
just you or was there anyone else that saw\h\h

336
00:29:28,140 --> 00:29:33,180
these objects well we had another pilot in the\h
cockpit that that saw it but he was uh he was\h\h

337
00:29:33,180 --> 00:29:37,260
paying attention to other things in the cockpit\h
he had to look over and see it and you know\h\h

338
00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:41,820
he sent it off he's non-military so he assumed\h
it was probably some kind of military aircraft\h\h

339
00:29:43,020 --> 00:29:51,120
um the big thing to me at I was at 47 000 feet\h
for people don't realize airliners the highest\h\h

340
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:57,120
I've ever heard of airliner go was like 41 but\h
that's extremely rare they only do it maybe they\h\h

341
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:03,000
get over uh storms or if if the jet stream's\h
really strong and they want to get up there\h\h

342
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:11,340
but most airliners are between like 28 and 38 000\h
feet most of them right so we're at 47 000 feet so\h\h

343
00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:17,340
we're above everybody the only people that should\h
be above us could be another Gulf Stream at our\h\h

344
00:30:17,340 --> 00:30:23,040
service ceiling is 51 000 feet but at 51 000 feet\h
you're only there you can only be there maybe the\h\h

345
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,780
last 20 minutes of a flight yeah and you're not\h
gonna nobody's gonna go that high nobody does\h\h

346
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,060
um and you're not going to be able to move you're\h
going to have any maneuverability I mean why is\h\h

347
00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:38,100
that well the error as you know the air is\h
super thin so you have to have a either a big\h\h

348
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:43,320
surface area and you're also going to have to have\h
velocity to make up the same amount of lift that\h\h

349
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:50,400
you would down at down let's say 5000 feet right\h
so anytime you make a turn you're reducing that\h\h

350
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,920
lift so to return that to you reduce that lift\h
you're going to have to add thrust and and Pitch\h\h

351
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,620
right because you got to maintain the same um the\h
lift to be able to airplane to be able to fly to\h\h

352
00:31:01,620 --> 00:31:06,000
be able to perform the same amount of left to fly\h
so to do that you're going to lose you're going\h\h

353
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,700
to need more power more thrust right so in that\h
turn at those altitudes it's going to create more\h\h

354
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:17,580
g-forces because you're gonna have to have more\h
thrust more you're going to be pulling absolutely\h\h

355
00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:22,800
so you're gonna have to be adding more thrust and\h
the g-forces remember turning g-forces how turning\h\h

356
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:29,040
tight g-forces right now if I took a gulf stream\h
to 51 000 feet Which is higher than I was at 47\h\h

357
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:35,580
000 and tried to make a 180 degree turn or a\h
360 return it'd probably cover well over 10\h\h

358
00:31:35,580 --> 00:31:40,500
mile radius would be a 10 mile turn because the\h
air is so because it's air so thin the aircraft\h\h

359
00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:45,300
actually goes into what's called half angle Bank\h
turn when you're up that high okay and it will\h\h

360
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:50,640
not do a standard rate turn it'll do a half the\h
computer will stop it because it knows if you do\h\h

361
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,600
the airplane's going to stall and it's gonna it's\h
gonna lose out it's gonna come out of the sky so\h\h

362
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,460
the airplane will not allow you to do that the\h
Gulf Stream 650 is pretty smart airplane it won't\h\h

363
00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:05,340
let you stall it so to so you're way up there yeah\h
we're really really high yeah nobody's about and\h\h

364
00:32:05,340 --> 00:32:09,060
so I've I haven't even been like that high in a\h
fighter jet we'd go up there and we mess around\h\h

365
00:32:09,060 --> 00:32:13,200
and we try to do the same thing and really really\h
get to the point where if we made any turn we're\h\h

366
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,340
gonna just follow the sky essentially well back\h
to when I was in the Marine Corps I had to take\h\h

367
00:32:17,340 --> 00:32:24,960
a uh an a model F-18 Hornet single seat and take\h
it down to to Jacksonville Florida to NAS Jacks\h\h

368
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,840
well I think they decommissioned at the time\h
but that's where they did all the depot level\h\h

369
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:33,600
maintenance so they stripped the F-18 down I mean\h
it's super light it had a full bag of gas right\h\h

370
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,200
and I'm not taking off out of Beaufort and it's\h
only like a 35 minute flight down to Jacksonville\h\h

371
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,940
I got a whole bag of gas what am I going to do\h
I'm gonna go out and play right sure so I took\h\h

372
00:32:41,940 --> 00:32:46,740
off and I remember I got it up into the high 50s\h
but to be that high I was in straight level flight\h\h

373
00:32:46,740 --> 00:32:51,540
and I was in full afterburner just to maintain\h
altitude exactly yeah so you could tell that it\h\h

374
00:32:51,540 --> 00:32:55,800
takes so much and after but remember how much\h
after how much thrust the afterburner has on a\h\h

375
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,240
hornet even though it has a short stubby wing it\h
took that much thrust just to maintain altitude\h\h

376
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,380
the second I pulled the throttle off out of\h
afterburner the aircraft started to descend\h\h

377
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:12,120
okay I couldn't keep altitude so you're at 50 000\h
or you're at 47 000 feet yes really any higher\h\h

378
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,520
than your aircraft get or even you know some of\h
our modern Fighters now I understand and I'm sure\h\h

379
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,500
you do too but you know the F22 F-35 especially\h
the F-22 is maneuverable at higher altitudes\h\h

380
00:33:23,580 --> 00:33:27,960
um but really you know they don't go to the Moon\h
I mean you're already pretty pretty high up there\h\h

381
00:33:28,620 --> 00:33:33,900
um do we so let's take a step back and let's\h
okay we're way up there and what did you see\h\h

382
00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:40,920
so I just happened to look out and I saw a\h
light circling and I thought when I first\h\h

383
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,260
looked up at it I'm like well that's true you\h
know it's pretty strange and uh it's got to be\h\h

384
00:33:46,260 --> 00:33:51,960
another aircraft like a big like kind of well\h
easy Loop it was when the first I saw it was\h\h

385
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,280
like a light and then I saw another one coming\h
behind it and it was almost two lights doing a\h\h

386
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:02,340
180 like we would do on a Crossing Circle yeah\h
a cross circle like a two-circle flight right so\h\h

387
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,640
I look up and I see it I'm like oh that's really\h
strange you know who what's going to be above us\h\h

388
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,560
but at that time they weren't turning it was you\h
know I saw one I believe it was coming towards the\h\h

389
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,780
aircraft and I was and I looked up and I'm like\h
oh wow there's somebody going above us and then\h\h

390
00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:23,100
also looked like it was coming like yeah like\h
Crossing it looked like it was a cross crap\h\h

391
00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:27,240
Crossing traffic and then as I'm looking at it and\h
I'm doing this all of a sudden another one comes\h\h

392
00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:32,040
out from Over the cockpit and there were probably\h
the same direction uh opposite direction so 180\h\h

393
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:37,860
180 right and but they were high they weren't\h
like a couple thousand feet they were probably\h\h

394
00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:42,600
eight or ten thousand feet above us I mean they're\h
pretty high right but you have no depth perception\h\h

395
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,980
tonight that's the problem with it there's no\h
depth recession but but what I could tell they\h\h

396
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:51,420
were probably eight to ten thousand feet above\h
us perhaps if they were a fighter size aircraft\h\h

397
00:34:51,420 --> 00:34:57,120
or an aircraft like you're you're flying at this\h
moment no out no idea because you know I have I\h\h

398
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,080
see things through like okay well I know what an\h
F-18 looks like at this distance and so that's\h\h

399
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,940
my like internal compass for things so so kind\h
of wondering maybe you might be using something\h\h

400
00:35:05,940 --> 00:35:09,540
didn't see any shapes or anything almost always\h
light so you're kind of using those two lights\h\h

401
00:35:09,540 --> 00:35:14,400
to say hey if they were moving maybe at the speed\h
that I'm familiar with as a pilot then they would\h\h

402
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,720
be eight to ten thousand feet above this aircraft\h
that's about the best judgment I can do because\h\h

403
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:23,580
there's no there's no uh depth perception there's\h
nothing right and especially at night you can't\h\h

404
00:35:23,580 --> 00:35:28,200
tell so the first thing I did when I saw it is I\h
looked down at tcash traffic collision avoidance\h\h

405
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,560
system and I looked down to see if anybody\h
was above us okay and I didn't see anything\h\h

406
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,480
so I went into the box and I switched it to above\h
to look to nothing but above nothing on the box\h\h

407
00:35:37,260 --> 00:35:42,360
and then I thought okay well you know these guys\h
maybe it's military so what I start thinking maybe\h\h

408
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,680
it's some kind of military and then all of a\h
sudden there were three lights and then they\h\h

409
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,960
moved from where they were disappearing over the\h
over the cockpit they actually moved in their\h\h

410
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,460
circular pattern moved away from the window where\h
I could actually see it look like a racetrack\h\h

411
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:02,460
pattern so it was a racetrack it went from they\h
were circling and then they were cross-tracking\h\h

412
00:36:02,460 --> 00:36:07,620
towards the aircraft but then they went back away\h
towards the aircraft they moved back away from us\h\h

413
00:36:07,620 --> 00:36:12,300
okay just at an angle about and you didn't make\h
any turns oh absolutely not where autopilot was\h\h

414
00:36:12,300 --> 00:36:19,680
on uh we were heading I think we were doing like\h
0.88 mock which is 8.8 miles a minute right yeah\h\h

415
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:26,340
and then I saw the third one and I'm like\h
well that doesn't make any sense so I called\h\h

416
00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:31,920
air traffic control and I just asked hey is there\h
any military you know is there I got some lights\h\h

417
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,400
up here I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember\h
exactly what the conversation was but I basically\h\h

418
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,140
asked him hey what's going on because you kind of\h
expected them that maybe have them on the radar\h\h

419
00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:43,620
oh yeah I just expected them to come back and\h
say yeah there's military conducting operations\h\h

420
00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:46,680
because it was right off the coast of California\h
right and I thought well maybe it's something\h\h

421
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:52,560
out of uh something launched out of um uh what\h
Edwards Air Force Base or you know we got Point\h\h

422
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,480
Magoo's over there maybe somebody's there might be\h
something going on right uh Vandenberg who knows\h\h

423
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,740
what's going on okay and air traffic control came\h
back and said no no we have nothing on the radar\h\h

424
00:37:02,460 --> 00:37:06,420
and I'm like wait is that's really weird yeah\h
and I asked I think I asked him if there's any\h\h

425
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:09,840
military operations going on and she said\h
no there's nothing no military operations\h\h

426
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,620
in the area and they would know right like they\h
would think they should yeah they should know\h\h

427
00:37:14,940 --> 00:37:23,520
um so I continue to watch it for a minute and then\h
a fourth light appeared hmm and then what really\h\h

428
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:29,700
got me was what I thought was a shooting star\h
this is where it gets a little weird I thought\h\h

429
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:33,420
it was a shooting star right because I'm looking\h
at these things I'm like oh awesome I get to now\h\h

430
00:37:33,420 --> 00:37:36,360
I get to see I'm looking at the stuff here\h
and I see it looks like a shooting star yeah\h\h

431
00:37:37,380 --> 00:37:42,720
it actually stopped and joined the formation\h
that that's the one that that that's the one that\h\h

432
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:48,240
really I was like what the heck I made another\h
called air traffic control and told them hey\h\h

433
00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:53,040
there's the you know there's five lights\h
now and one of them just came down from\h\h

434
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:58,920
above and joined the formation um and then we\h
watch them it happened it happened for a while\h\h

435
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,760
they asked other aircraft that they'd seen\h
it and nobody you know everybody kept saying\h\h

436
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,260
no we don't see anything so we I don't remember\h
the exact period it's been such a long time now\h\h

437
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:14,100
um but it tracked us and this is something else\h
that was really strange it wasn't a stationary uh\h\h

438
00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:19,560
orbit it was a moving orbit so you didn't move\h
past it no it followed us it kind of they were\h\h

439
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:25,560
orbiting following us so if they were following us\h
they had to be whatever the maneuvering speed was\h\h

440
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:34,020
for the track but they were also moving with us at\h
eight eight Mach 0.88 mock so that's what was the\h\h

441
00:38:34,020 --> 00:38:40,380
really strange part about it because they were\h
moving along with us and I thought it was the I\h\h

442
00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:46,320
mean it was the strangest thing I've ever seen and\h
it followed along for a while a couple more Radio\h\h

443
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:52,200
Calls to air traffic control and then um they\h
they had moved over the cockpit they moved back\h\h

444
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:58,380
out and then that one time they came back over the\h
cockpits the last time I saw them um didn't think\h\h

445
00:38:58,380 --> 00:39:02,100
anything else out we were getting ready to hit\h
I think it was called Dinty as a reporting point\h\h

446
00:39:02,100 --> 00:39:07,680
that when we push off and switch over to to HF\h
freaks to head over to see to head over to Hawaii\h\h

447
00:39:08,820 --> 00:39:13,260
um so the last time I checked in with with\h
air traffic control how that nobody else was\h\h

448
00:39:13,260 --> 00:39:21,900
reporting anything so we get to Maui and then the\h
next morning I get a phone call from a supervisor\h\h

449
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:30,360
with LA with La Center and he I'm not going to\h
use his name but he basically tells me that uh\h\h

450
00:39:31,980 --> 00:39:35,940
that he made a copy of the radar tape for\h
me and sent me the copy of the radar tape\h\h

451
00:39:35,940 --> 00:39:42,120
he emailed it to me awesome and the reason\h
why he said later they had a meeting with\h\h

452
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:47,820
the higher Echelon or I'll call it the xlc or\h
whatever um and after they came out of that\h\h

453
00:39:47,820 --> 00:39:53,220
meeting emergency meeting all the data around\h
the tape was corrupted but I had a copy of it

454
00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:01,860
so he also told me that other airline\h
pilots had called in later same the same\h\h

455
00:40:01,860 --> 00:40:06,120
ones that are apparently were on the\h
radio saying they didn't see anything\h\h

456
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,660
called in after they landed and said yeah\h
they saw something they didn't want their\h\h

457
00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:15,840
their official record on the on the radar fa\h
tapes absolutely I thought they didn't want to\h\h

458
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,760
report it I've heard that before and I thought\h
that was really strange so then they gave me\h\h

459
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,300
they told me that I was going to be getting a\h
call or gave me a number said you're going to\h\h

460
00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:29,400
be going to call from this number and it turned\h
out that some I forget what it was it was some\h\h

461
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:37,080
jtalk or a joint uh air defense whatever\h
was whatever the the acronym stands for\h\h

462
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:43,740
um called me and they debriefed me on they want\h
to know exactly what happened and I told them uh\h\h

463
00:40:43,740 --> 00:40:49,860
less than about a 40 45 minute phone call with\h
these guys and then then they recommended I call\h\h

464
00:40:49,860 --> 00:40:55,920
the National UFO Reporting site just to let them\h
know that way they can put use their Freedom of\h\h

465
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:01,980
Information Act to pull radar tapes and then\h
they told me that the uh my report was going\h\h

466
00:41:01,980 --> 00:41:06,780
to go into a report going to Congress so there's\h
been a lot of interesting sites then I got it next\h\h

467
00:41:06,780 --> 00:41:14,940
thing I know I get a phone call from or I believe\h
it was a phone call from Ben Hansen who had heard\h\h

468
00:41:14,940 --> 00:41:21,600
about it and he started talking to me Ben Hansen\h
is a um he's a retired FBI agent and he's a uh\h\h

469
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:27,240
a UFO researcher paranormal researcher and he\h
started looking into my story he heard about it\h\h

470
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:34,500
um I think through the UFO Reporting line he heard\h
about it and then um he started investigating\h\h

471
00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:40,080
and he started trying to pull uh foia Freedom of\h
Information Act to get this information from SoCal\h\h

472
00:41:40,620 --> 00:41:48,000
traycon right um eventually corrupted radar data\h
correct and then I started receiving information\h\h

473
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:54,960
from other controllers that bad things would\h
happen to them if they were to come out and talk\h\h

474
00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:01,620
about the radar tapes of what they saw um and then\h
one of them had told me about just recently I wish\h\h

475
00:42:01,620 --> 00:42:07,680
I could pull it up I forget the name of the uh the\h
F-18 Squadron um I could pull it up later and tell\h\h

476
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,480
you the name of the F-18 Squadron they were out\h
there flying uh doing stuff off of Catalina and\h\h

477
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:19,740
they were reporting um underwater activity Lights\h
under water moving at speeds that were impossible\h\h

478
00:42:19,740 --> 00:42:25,860
for anything to move that fast obviously water\h
so this is a this is a Navy F-18 Squadron is\h\h

479
00:42:25,860 --> 00:42:30,960
operating in the same area as you're seeing these\h
objects above your aircraft for a period of time\h\h

480
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:36,060
absolutely and you're now finding out that they\h
were reporting seeing lights under the water yes\h\h

481
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:43,020
what what what the [\h__\h] yeah well I still\h
you know I don't know what it was and then uh\h\h

482
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,680
um more air traffic controllers reached out and\h
started asking me more questions and saying you\h\h

483
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:54,480
know that they they wanted to talk about it\h
they'd like to talk you know guys wanted to\h\h

484
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,380
wanted to share more stories about what\h
happened off the Record because if they\h\h

485
00:42:58,380 --> 00:43:03,000
come out they said it wouldn't end well for\h
them they'd probably lose their jobs but more\h\h

486
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,720
people started coming out come to find out\h
I found out from an aircraft controller that\h\h

487
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:12,180
another I believe it's a Hawaiian Airline\h
guy had reported what I sort of what I saw\h\h

488
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:18,120
um it's similar but different right his was not\h
over his aircraft his was I think at a distance\h\h

489
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:25,080
but people had started reporting seeing weird\h
things um weeks before and nobody before and\h\h

490
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:30,960
nobody would say nobody said anything so when I\h
when my radar tape came or the radar tape I had I\h\h

491
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,600
sent it to Ben Hansen so Ben Hanson put it on the\h
internet and once he put that on the internet next\h\h

492
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,940
thing you know all these airline pilots started\h
coming forward and saying hey guess what I saw\h\h

493
00:43:41,940 --> 00:43:48,120
something also so it sort of opened the opened\h
Pandora's Box and now everybody's coming out\h\h

494
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,800
and talking about things that they've seen and\h
people seeing lights flying and uh so the pilots\h\h

495
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:58,020
are talking about this Pilots are coming out now\h
talking about it and I didn't I didn't transmit\h\h

496
00:43:58,020 --> 00:44:03,120
anything over the radio because I wanted publicity\h
or any I was just doing my my duty as a pilot\h\h

497
00:44:04,140 --> 00:44:08,400
um and forming air traffic control or asking it\h
we trained for that I mean what is it reacted\h\h

498
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,700
that way because that's the right procedure\h
as the right thing to do absolutely having\h\h

499
00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:16,620
uncertainty in our operating space like that\h
is the last thing we we work towards so yeah\h\h

500
00:44:16,620 --> 00:44:22,680
you know something else that's really weird if I\h
was at if I was on the ground or if I was at 12\h\h

501
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:28,140
000 feet in a Cessna even at 25 000 feet in a\h
citation flying and I looked up and saw the lights\h\h

502
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:33,000
I wasn't even looked up twice I would have thought\h
yeah more airplanes I wouldn't even have thought\h\h

503
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,840
twice because you're so high but what got me was\h
that forty seven thousand feet and I know nobody's\h\h

504
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,280
above us nobody is you know and everybody starts\h
saying hey it's probably military I said okay\h\h

505
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:47,160
let's say it is military where are the military\h
Landing lights they're on the landing gear you\h\h

506
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,640
think a military pilot a military aircraft can\h
fly around this landing gear down it wouldn't\h\h

507
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:55,860
be able to maintain flight at that altitude yeah\h
and no military aircraft's going to make those\h\h

508
00:44:55,860 --> 00:45:00,720
kind of turns I mean who can make those kind of\h
tight turns at that altitude I know it's going to\h\h

509
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:05,340
take me 10 miles on my Gulf Stream yeah to make\h
a turn and I have a massive 100 foot wingspan\h\h

510
00:45:06,060 --> 00:45:09,060
what's it going to take of something I don't\h
know how big this was I don't know if it was\h\h

511
00:45:09,060 --> 00:45:14,580
a a small object as small as a table just a big\h
light or if it was a massive object I don't know\h\h

512
00:45:14,580 --> 00:45:18,960
there's I couldn't see anything but the lights\h
which was really strange and the lights never\h\h

513
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:24,480
disappeared the lights would is they came on\h
me they were really bright and then as they\h\h

514
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,200
started to move away but the lights were still I\h
could still see the lights they never disappeared\h\h

515
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:34,080
um so they weren't directional well you know\h
they weren't they weren't fixed at a fixed\h\h

516
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:41,040
Direction it was like a almost like a NAB light\h
on yeah where it's always there yeah where it's\h\h

517
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:47,220
always there but it was more defined when it\h
was coming around the circle towards me it\h\h

518
00:45:47,220 --> 00:45:51,240
got really bright and then it faded out but\h
it was still there and it never disappeared\h\h

519
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:57,780
it was always there and at the end I believe\h
there were seven total seven seven total I\h\h

520
00:45:57,780 --> 00:46:03,480
believe at the very end in flying in formation\h
so I believe the fifth one joined them from above\h\h

521
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:09,660
it was either the fifth or sixth one joined from\h
above and then another one or two whatever order\h\h

522
00:46:09,660 --> 00:46:13,860
it was and there were a total of seven at the\h
very end oh wow but you could hear that on my\h\h

523
00:46:13,860 --> 00:46:18,240
air traffic control tapes when I came in and I\h
reported air traffic control and that's when I\h\h

524
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:23,160
that's when it really got me because I jumped on\h
there and said hey one just joined it from about\h\h

525
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:27,300
another seven one or six or seven one just joined\h
from above came in from above and joined them\h\h

526
00:46:28,020 --> 00:46:34,860
you know and uh here's what's funny I got\h
a copy of the air traffic control tape\h\h

527
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:44,100
um of the lady making a call to her supervisor and\h
they were laughing about it um and then when she\h\h

528
00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:49,440
said well hey this guy is reporting it again\h
and he said he's an fa he's a retired Marine\h\h

529
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,300
F-18 pilot then their attitude change like\h
okay this isn't just some whack job out there\h\h

530
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,520
you know just making stuff up because I told him\h
listen I've done error I've done intercepts and\h\h

531
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,720
everything I I've never seen anything like it yeah\h
so their attitude sort of changed when they found\h\h

532
00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:09,120
out that I had a little bit of credibility behind\h
me that's something to me is like a lack of just\h\h

533
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:15,720
integration into our our Aviation safety framework\h
in the United States and globally but even in the\h\h

534
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:19,800
United States um I I know they probably laugh\h
just because they weren't familiar with the\h\h

535
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:25,080
topic and what have you but you know I I believe\h
that the policies and the procedures for reporting\h\h

536
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,640
this and and actually following up on the data\h
are going to help alleviate that because well\h\h

537
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:35,160
I hope so because you know you shouldn't have it\h
doesn't matter if I was an F-18 pilot or if I was\h\h

538
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:40,980
a student pilot a sighting is a site if somebody\h
sees something that's unexplained they should\h\h

539
00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:47,460
take every single Report with the same enthusiasm\h
right it doesn't matter um I mean anybody can get\h\h

540
00:47:47,460 --> 00:47:52,920
out there and make a story up and it's up for the\h
the evidence to speak for themselves I wish I had\h\h

541
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:58,380
video of it I don't have video of it all I have\h
is my my word and what I saw for the radio but\h\h

542
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:05,580
um how many Pilots don't say anything I mean it's\h
obvious the airline pilots called in and said you\h\h

543
00:48:05,580 --> 00:48:08,940
know hey yeah we saw something but they didn't\h
want to say it over the radio I wonder why that\h\h

544
00:48:08,940 --> 00:48:14,280
was you know I I've talked to other Airline guys\h
old retired Airline captains and they said that\h\h

545
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,940
it was against company policy you know you could\h
lose your medical they can think you have some\h\h

546
00:48:17,940 --> 00:48:22,680
psychological problems and you lose your medical\h
right you lose your medical you lose your job you\h\h

547
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:29,100
can't fly anymore yep medical not meaning medical\h
uh it's a medical the medical talk about to say\h\h

548
00:48:29,100 --> 00:48:33,900
you have to go every year to the to an aircraft\h
medical examiner and get evaluated by a doctor and\h\h

549
00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:37,560
says hey you're capable you know compliment to be\h
a pilot you know you're physically capable of you\h\h

550
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:42,000
know you essentially have to probably explain that\h
even if they did like sign off on it that would be\h\h

551
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,080
like an issue you'd probably have to discuss it it\h
would it would if something got put in your record\h\h

552
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:51,420
your fa record it never goes away ever so even\h
it wasn't in your airline record let's say they\h\h

553
00:48:51,420 --> 00:48:55,920
sent you in for a mental evaluation it's in your\h
permanent record for the rest of your life yeah\h\h

554
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,180
so guys just don't want to deal with it they don't\h
they just want to put their head down and and not\h\h

555
00:49:00,180 --> 00:49:04,260
say anything they'll make an anonymous call how\h
many people trying to go for a commercial airline\h\h

556
00:49:04,260 --> 00:49:08,700
job after they go in military want something\h
like that sitting in their file or how many just\h\h

557
00:49:08,700 --> 00:49:12,660
regular Pilots that never went in the military\h
at least we have some credibility behind us for\h\h

558
00:49:12,660 --> 00:49:16,080
what it's worth but how many guys are out that\h
get their commercial license that are flight\h\h

559
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,620
instructors that that see things that they don't\h
know what they are and they don't want to report\h\h

560
00:49:19,620 --> 00:49:25,200
it because they don't want the stigma attached\h
to it and I hope that uh I mean I don't care I'm\h\h

561
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:30,660
not I'm not in fear of losing my job my boss is\h
completely you know he completely trusts me and\h\h

562
00:49:31,980 --> 00:49:36,300
um he's got confidence in me he knows I'm not\h
going to make up a story for what am I going to\h\h

563
00:49:36,300 --> 00:49:41,280
get out of it I've got nothing but hassle from\h
it yeah you know as soon as like as soon as the\h\h

564
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:46,800
the it hit the internet uh I started getting\h
all kinds of weird phone calls and harassing\h\h

565
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:54,000
emails and my social media oh here's one I got\h
to tell you this is great I forgot about this so\h\h

566
00:49:54,720 --> 00:50:02,460
I posted that video I posted that video online\h
the the bootleg video the guy sent me from the\h\h

567
00:50:02,460 --> 00:50:09,540
radar tapes oh he did I posted that online on\h
my on my uh Instagram and next thing you know\h\h

568
00:50:09,540 --> 00:50:16,500
my Instagram was deactivated I really couldn't get\h
access to it hmm very interesting and I reported\h\h

569
00:50:16,500 --> 00:50:21,360
that to Ben also let Ben know and I also told uh\h
there was another news station that talked to me\h\h

570
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:26,040
about it and I let them know the same thing\h
that they had deactivated they shut down my\h\h

571
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:31,020
Instagram account that's particularly relevant\h
right now as absolutely musk seems to be opening\h\h

572
00:50:31,020 --> 00:50:36,120
the curtain yeah absolutely and then uh once\h
all these other Pilots started coming out and\h\h

573
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:40,860
all this thing started hitting the news and\h
people started talking about it uh guess what\h\h

574
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:47,640
my account came back online but guess what wasn't\h
on the account that file my file was gone strange\h\h

575
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,380
how it works yeah that was another weird thing\h
and then uh somebody brought up that you know they\h\h

576
00:50:52,380 --> 00:50:57,900
wanted to put in a freedom information act through\h
uh Instagram which I think is owned by Facebook\h\h

577
00:50:57,900 --> 00:51:03,480
right I think so I think so uh to try to find out\h
why they why they shut my account down and why\h\h

578
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:09,360
they deleted the file yeah someone could figure\h
that out it was just really weird thing yeah so\h\h

579
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:15,300
how did that file end they were laughing um you\h
know just generally kind of dismissive of the the\h\h

580
00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:21,060
sighting if you will right yeah and then then what\h
else no nothing else they just you know they they\h\h

581
00:51:21,060 --> 00:51:24,480
said they didn't know anything was out there\h
they couldn't see anything and they basically\h\h

582
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:30,480
just handed me off to the other controlling agency\h
and that was it and then I heard a different file\h\h

583
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:37,620
um that from I think it was uh later on in the\h
morning that Ben Hansen was able to get a hold of\h\h

584
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:43,320
that of her calling her supervisor again the\h
one that she called they were laughing about it\h\h

585
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:49,860
called and said hey we've got you know whatever\h
Air Airline whatever is reporting lights and\h\h

586
00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:55,860
like another one and then you know they realize\h
okay something something's going on here there's\h\h

587
00:51:55,860 --> 00:52:00,360
something being seen out here and they just didn't\h
know what it was interesting yeah so there's other\h\h

588
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:04,920
audio tapes from Air Traffic Control so there's a\h
there's still a foia they're still trying to pull\h\h

589
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:10,740
information from these guys to figure out what\h
really happened and why the radar tapes would\h\h

590
00:52:10,740 --> 00:52:16,320
have been corrupted yeah that's disappointing um\h
but I have a copy of it thank God thank goodness\h\h

591
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:21,120
the gentleman that the the supervisor sent me a\h
copy of it oh good and that's how it got out there\h\h

592
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:26,580
uh we're gonna pull up and we're gonna listen\h
to that tape footage that you provided and\h\h

593
00:52:26,580 --> 00:52:31,800
we're gonna hear what they have to say Roger and\h
then the f-18s were call sign shock okay got that\h\h

594
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:36,000
off of the Caroline the ones that were seeing\h
these objects underwater and they were seeing\h\h

595
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,500
lights too yeah absolutely very interesting\h
all right let's give this a listen hey um

596
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:56,220
you said that there are three aircraft high\h
above him orbiting and I don't know well that's\h\h

597
00:52:56,220 --> 00:53:02,520
kind of weird he said yeah they're just kind of\h
going around for Hope yeah that's kind of weird\h\h

598
00:53:03,060 --> 00:53:10,800
um okay 47 000 feet and he said they're pretty far\h
above him yeah I heard it's just like yeah I don't\h\h

599
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,460
know the first thing I thought was a battle\h
ladder yeah that's exactly what I'm thinking\h\h

600
00:53:15,780 --> 00:53:21,540
so one how did that make you feel with\h
them laughing like that as from like a\h\h

601
00:53:21,540 --> 00:53:26,520
safety perspective when would that be acceptable\h
really well you know I didn't hear them laughing\h\h

602
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:34,080
over the radio it was only after I received the\h
audio um excuse me language has pissed me off you\h\h

603
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:42,000
know and and uh that felt made me feel a little\h
bit better when I heard the the attitude change\h\h

604
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:46,260
when they realized that you know I flew Fighters\h
and then they started taking a little serious but\h\h

605
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:51,480
it it sort of more infuriated me because\h
it shouldn't matter what I did in the past\h\h

606
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,980
it really shouldn't somebody comes up over the\h
radio it doesn't matter if it's someone who like\h\h

607
00:53:55,980 --> 00:54:00,840
I said just started flying or an astronaut right\h
they see they're all held to the same standard\h\h

608
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:05,340
absolutely right it doesn't matter if it's if\h
it's a student pilot or story Musgrave doesn't\h\h

609
00:54:05,340 --> 00:54:10,680
matter that everybody should be taken at their\h
word until they're proven otherwise and if you\h\h

610
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:16,320
are proven otherwise you know that that's going to\h
be on you and have you thought about perhaps you\h\h

611
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,040
know how we could better understand what these\h
are how we could maybe reach some conclusion\h\h

612
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:25,920
you know it would have been great I mean you know\h
they have ready alert aircraft I mean it would\h\h

613
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:30,240
have been awesome if they would have launched some\h
F-22 Raptors up there to take a look at it but you\h\h

614
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:34,260
know they're not seeing anything but if you got\h
Pilots multiple Pilots reporting things all the\h\h

615
00:54:34,260 --> 00:54:39,240
time why not why not do it I mean you know it's a\h
fighter pilot I'd do in a second if I was on ready\h\h

616
00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:42,540
alert and I'm just sitting around sitting around\h
the room waiting to get called to go do something\h\h

617
00:54:42,540 --> 00:54:46,800
at Aaron addiction and that's what you're there\h
for yeah especially as an Air Force guy right\h\h

618
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:51,240
why not send these guys up and try to do something\h
they have the most advanced radar I almost wonder\h\h

619
00:54:51,240 --> 00:54:56,340
if the commercial Market could fill that need\h
if someone could provide a space based sensing\h\h

620
00:54:56,340 --> 00:55:00,720
platform that linked right into the FAA and\h
could look real time and see these results from a\h\h

621
00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:05,220
different angle that would be great if they could\h
do something like that I mean Elon Musk is that'd\h\h

622
00:55:05,220 --> 00:55:09,480
be the guy to do it he's got so many satellites\h
up there right he does have a lot it'd be great\h\h

623
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:15,420
to have somebody up there that had a uh maybe not\h
him do it but somebody you know get some advice\h\h

624
00:55:15,420 --> 00:55:19,860
from him and watch what he's done and and get up\h
there and link up with him or if they're putting\h\h

625
00:55:19,860 --> 00:55:24,120
lights off of the the vehicle we should be able to\h
measure that in some sense somebody should be able\h\h

626
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:28,140
to see it yeah right what's weird is nobody's\h
reported anything like this from the ground\h\h

627
00:55:29,580 --> 00:55:34,380
strange well who would there who would like a\h
like a pilot on the ground or a regular person\h\h

628
00:55:34,380 --> 00:55:41,400
just people on the ground you know if there's\h
other there's other instances of a pilot seeing\h\h

629
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:51,120
lights and it's weird because I hadn't seen your\h
podcast until recently and I think they dubbed the\h\h

630
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:57,720
UFO the racetrack phenomena off of your podcast\h
calling a UFO racetrack pattern and but that's\h\h

631
00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:02,220
what we're seeing as a UFO racetrack pattern\h
so everybody's seeing these racetrack patterns\h\h

632
00:56:02,220 --> 00:56:06,420
some of them could might be explainable\h
they might be satellites or something but\h\h

633
00:56:07,260 --> 00:56:12,240
I know what I saw there's no wires in Satellite\h
yeah it's impossible Nothing's Gonna Nothing's\h\h

634
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:18,240
Gonna orbit right over the top of you like that\h
and then something else join in from above the\h\h

635
00:56:18,240 --> 00:56:23,220
satellites just don't do that why did you call it\h
a shooting star can you describe why you decided\h\h

636
00:56:23,220 --> 00:56:28,020
to name it like that to have a trail no no Trail\h
just look like a uh you know sometimes you'll see\h\h

637
00:56:28,020 --> 00:56:31,740
a shooting star it'll come down and you've got\h
like uh bright ones you've got some that have\h\h

638
00:56:31,740 --> 00:56:36,480
these massive huge Trails obviously depending\h
on the density and the size of the object right\h\h

639
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,860
entering the Earth's atmosphere but it just\h
looked like a a small shooting star is what\h\h

640
00:56:40,860 --> 00:56:47,880
it looked like but then it stopped it stopped\h
enjoying the formation wow so literally it it\h\h

641
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:55,140
literally came in and just joined the formation\h
as it was circling is pure slow down oh yeah it\h\h

642
00:56:55,140 --> 00:56:58,080
definitely slowed down I mean it just came in\h
and stopped with the formation and just came\h\h

643
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:04,200
in and stopped did the Luminosity change as\h
you know protected changes looked everything\h\h

644
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,820
was exactly the same the lights never this was\h
something else that was that you brought this up\h\h

645
00:57:08,820 --> 00:57:15,420
the only time the lights would change intensity\h
is when they orbited uh close to the aircraft\h\h

646
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:20,880
as they moved away from the aircraft and as they\h
came towards aircraft they were the same intensity\h\h

647
00:57:21,660 --> 00:57:27,780
the only time they changed us on that on that one\h
half of that loop as when they were circling by\h\h

648
00:57:27,780 --> 00:57:32,280
that's the only time the lights got bright other\h
than that they stayed they stayed the same and\h\h

649
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:37,320
they were visible oh yeah absolutely you can\h
they never disappeared yeah so the fact that\h\h

650
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:42,360
people are saying there you probably were looking\h
at satellites well satellites don't do 180 orbits\h\h

651
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:47,100
like that you know 180 and 180 they don't do that\h
it was basically like an Air Force grinder right\h\h

652
00:57:47,100 --> 00:57:52,140
yeah 15 Schooner grinder that's what it was like\h
but it turned out there was about seven of them at\h\h

653
00:57:52,140 --> 00:57:57,780
the end which is really weird how did that how did\h
that all just conclude how did you just as they\h\h

654
00:57:57,780 --> 00:58:02,040
moved over notice they moved over my aircraft uh\h
that's the last time I saw them but it took place\h\h

655
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:07,020
to probably over 20 25 minutes probably roughly\h
long yeah and then as the as they had moved over\h\h

656
00:58:07,020 --> 00:58:11,640
my aircraft it was the last time I was able to\h
visually see them they and once I went out of your\h\h

657
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:15,840
view and then you just were never able to pick\h
them up again correct they just disappeared and\h\h

658
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:22,620
then everything else was follow-up you know with\h
people uh uh calling me or getting emails or text\h\h

659
00:58:22,620 --> 00:58:26,880
messages and yeah let's talk about that why why do\h
you think they felt the need to kind of reach out\h\h

660
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:32,220
to you and have that conversation after I was sort\h
of shocked because I was a Contractor on a flight\h\h

661
00:58:32,220 --> 00:58:40,920
on Twilight 670 and Twilight 670 is the aircraft\h
that's owned by a uh a prominent Tech billionaire\h\h

662
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,700
so his aircraft is blocked nobody\h
has access to that information\h\h

663
00:58:45,540 --> 00:58:52,320
so they reached out to the controlling um manager\h
of that aircraft to get my aircraft to get my\h\h

664
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:56,100
personal information because I'm not a full-time\h
employee with them I was just a contractor hired\h\h

665
00:58:56,100 --> 00:58:59,700
for that trip so they reach out to them to get my\h
information it's the only way to get in touch with\h\h

666
00:58:59,700 --> 00:59:07,860
me only I don't even know who I was um so I don't\h
know if the if the I think it was such a an impact\h\h

667
00:59:07,860 --> 00:59:14,260
on the center manager Air Traffic Control Center\h
manager that he wanted to reach out to me [Music]\h\h

668
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:20,400
in my opinion to say hey buddy you're not crazy\h
you know this here here's the radar tapes and\h\h

669
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:24,000
I'm glad he did that or we wouldn't have those\h
radar tapes yeah I'm glad he did that oh they're\h\h

670
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:30,000
corrupted now but yeah well supposedly corrupted\h
and so yeah well that's incredible for him to\h\h

671
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,180
tell me that they had gone into an emergency\h
meeting and come out and when they came out\h\h

672
00:59:33,180 --> 00:59:36,960
the radar tapes were corrupted what was the\h
emergency it didn't tell me he didn't know he\h\h

673
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:42,120
wasn't involved in the meeting yeah but they were\h
supposedly corrupted so I hope I didn't put him\h\h

674
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:48,000
at any Peril or whatever by taking that data\h
that he gave me and sharing it with the world\h\h

675
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,720
because people you know people have\h
a right to know I think of anything\h\h

676
00:59:52,860 --> 00:59:58,380
um any air traffic control should fall under\h
whistle ball or protection right they should be\h\h

677
00:59:58,380 --> 01:00:03,720
able to speak out if they're getting reports from\h
Pilots they should be able to speak out about it\h\h

678
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:09,240
who's going to hear about it air traffic control\h
of anybody else of pilots and everything it's\h\h

679
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:13,080
going to be the air traffic control people that\h
are actually getting the first-hand reports of\h\h

680
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:18,000
everything from Pilots right the pilots see it but\h
they're communicating over the radio air traffic\h\h

681
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:23,460
and that's an official government record right\h
over over frequencies and that stuff should be\h\h

682
01:00:23,460 --> 01:00:29,460
preserved and not just for 60 days 90 days however\h
long Air Traffic Control has it but when that kind\h\h

683
01:00:29,460 --> 01:00:34,740
of information comes that needs to be flagged\h
and kept permanently for analyzing interesting\h\h

684
01:00:34,740 --> 01:00:41,040
um that's that's what needs to happen but as they\h
informed me if they were to come forward nothing\h\h

685
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:45,120
good would have came of it basically it had been\h
they would have been lost their jobs prosecuted\h\h

686
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:49,800
whatever I don't know enough about our tough\h
control if they have to sign a non-disclosure or\h\h

687
01:00:50,820 --> 01:00:55,620
um because they handle a lot of military\h
aircraft right they might have uh actually\h\h

688
01:00:55,620 --> 01:01:01,200
believe it or not a lot of controllers uh I\h
don't know if it what percentage of them do\h\h

689
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:06,720
but a significant portion do have have\h
uh I think at least a secret clearance\h\h

690
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,620
you know because think about it you know the\h
president's flying around there's you know\h\h

691
01:01:12,180 --> 01:01:17,100
maybe a lot of things that would fall under\h
being classified but that that is an option\h\h

692
01:01:17,100 --> 01:01:22,020
so what I'm hearing is that you know as\h
we we talk to more pilots and we figure\h\h

693
01:01:22,020 --> 01:01:26,280
out what the the best reporting mechanisms\h
are going to be for what you guys are seeing\h\h

694
01:01:27,300 --> 01:01:33,840
um there's you know there's also a consideration\h
to ensuring that the FAA controllers have same\h\h

695
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:38,460
access to that reporting mechanism it sounds\h
like maybe sometimes the pilots won't identify\h\h

696
01:01:38,460 --> 01:01:43,920
a report because of whatever reasons and same\h
thing on the on the controller side as well\h\h

697
01:01:44,580 --> 01:01:51,000
yeah I understand the controller's concern about\h
if there's a uh a top secret aircraft or something\h\h

698
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:55,800
out there certainly they're not supposed to talk\h
about it but somebody needs to get briefed on it\h\h

699
01:01:56,460 --> 01:02:02,700
um you don't just discla discount anything that\h
anybody sees and and say oh it's probably military\h\h

700
01:02:02,700 --> 01:02:08,820
or it's top secret but that's actively harming\h
Aviation safety if you do that maybe that's the\h\h

701
01:02:08,820 --> 01:02:12,540
bucket you're taken from if you choose that\h
method well they're just demonizing anybody\h\h

702
01:02:12,540 --> 01:02:17,520
who's coming forward also I mean everybody's\h
a whack job right that's that's the the what\h\h

703
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:23,160
people think you know and nobody wants to get that\h
stigma I perceive so much of it uh after the stuff\h\h

704
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:29,880
got posted online and on national news that um\h
I had everything from uh people calling me crazy\h\h

705
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:35,220
to people want me to Father their children because\h
they think they have some kind of extraterrestrial

706
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:43,320
it's out there but I can understand the stigma by\h
nobody wants to talk about it but if you look at\h\h

707
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:50,760
it as Aviation safety um you know my reporting was\h
for basically safety like well what the heck is\h\h

708
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:54,480
this and what's it out here and if you guys aren't\h
seeing it as soon as they said they didn't see it\h\h

709
01:02:54,480 --> 01:03:00,600
that made me think well you know something's out\h
here and air traffic control is not seeing it but\h\h

710
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:05,520
I'm seeing it could it be could it be a safety\h
issue with my aircraft could they collide with my\h\h

711
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:11,220
aircraft what about other what about a passenger\h
crop that's got 400 people on it you know it it's\h\h

712
01:03:11,220 --> 01:03:16,800
an aspect that everybody needs to consider air\h
traffic control the federal government the Private\h\h

713
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:22,920
Industry everybody should have an open door policy\h
to be able to discuss any information anything\h\h

714
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:30,480
they see should go into a database and it needs to\h
be verified um and not just verified by it needs\h\h

715
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:34,620
to be verified by by people who know what they're\h
looking at right you need you need to board\h\h

716
01:03:34,620 --> 01:03:39,660
a direct you need people that are air traffic\h
control you need uh prior military guys that have\h\h

717
01:03:39,660 --> 01:03:46,260
done air interception interdictions it'd be great\h
to have astronauts um all kinds of scientists uh\h\h

718
01:03:46,260 --> 01:03:50,340
Engineers electrical astrophysics everything I\h
mean it'd be nice to have a whole Board of people\h\h

719
01:03:50,340 --> 01:03:56,760
to actually get together and say hey this is what\h
we have let's hear options let's what is it yeah\h\h

720
01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:01,080
you know but there's not right now nobody wants\h
to talk about it everybody's uh scrutinized and\h\h

721
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:06,720
criticized and laughed at I'm seeing that change\h
a little bit so I hope so from my perspective I've\h\h

722
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:12,480
been not receiving as much as it sounds like as\h
you have been but I've been uh engaging with the\h\h

723
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:17,820
American Institute of Aeronautics and astronautics\h
which is the largest Air and Space Professional\h\h

724
01:04:17,820 --> 01:04:23,160
Organization in the world with over 30 000 Plus\h
members and we've established our own permanent\h\h

725
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:29,820
committee within that organization to investigate\h
an identified Aerospace phenomena and yeah I did\h\h

726
01:04:29,820 --> 01:04:34,980
I have seen you know that skeptical take from\h
people with inside that Institute but we're at\h\h

727
01:04:34,980 --> 01:04:40,080
a point now where we've engaged with you know we\h
have about 45 50 members you know probably upwards\h\h

728
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:45,840
of a thousand years of you know NASA experience\h
spread out among the team across industry and\h\h

729
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:51,300
in the research labs and these are you know\h
industry first credible people that are putting\h\h

730
01:04:51,300 --> 01:04:56,400
real thought and real consideration into how we're\h
going to understand this in the future so I think\h\h

731
01:04:56,400 --> 01:05:02,220
that's really the best way to kind of move past\h
that that skepticism you see is just having normal\h\h

732
01:05:02,220 --> 01:05:08,220
rational conversation about this around the data\h
about this and making sure that we have the proper\h\h

733
01:05:08,220 --> 01:05:13,620
procedures in place to stop people from kind of\h
giving in to that that fear-based response of\h\h

734
01:05:13,620 --> 01:05:18,120
laughing about this because it's just a stigma and\h
you know something else I'd like to bring up is\h\h

735
01:05:18,900 --> 01:05:25,380
how do we know this isn't some adversary country\h
that's doing something within our airspace so the\h\h

736
01:05:25,380 --> 01:05:30,180
federal government should take a really serious\h
look at it they're in the 80s right I mean that's\h\h

737
01:05:30,180 --> 01:05:33,840
what that whole zone is for that's the whole\h
purpose absolutely and if it's some foreign\h\h

738
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:37,680
adversary that's in our airspace that we don't\h
know about that air traffic control can't see\h\h

739
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:43,800
we need to know about it regardless of what it is\h
it needs to be taken serious and I hope they start\h\h

740
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:49,020
taking things serious I hope they uh they start\h
looking at Pilot reports and people feel free\h\h

741
01:05:49,020 --> 01:05:55,560
to come come out and actually talk about it or\h
report it without reprisal or you know scrutiny or\h\h

742
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:01,860
um fear of losing your job that's probably the\h
big one nobody wants to lose her job it's a very\h\h

743
01:06:01,860 --> 01:06:06,180
once you're kind of in a position in the airlines\h
you're kind of there you have your number and if\h\h

744
01:06:06,180 --> 01:06:09,960
you leave you go back to the bottom there's no\h
transferring seniority around correct there's\h\h

745
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:14,820
nothing once you're gone you're gone and\h
it could be as easy as the FAA pulling your\h\h

746
01:06:14,820 --> 01:06:18,660
medical they don't have to give you a violation\h
they don't have to do anything they can wind up\h\h

747
01:06:18,660 --> 01:06:23,880
just holding nothing wrong and just nothing no\h
longer be a pilot and you're gone yep and in 10\h\h

748
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:29,460
minutes you're gone and a whole lifetime of work\h
I mean I've been a pilot since I'm 16 years old\h\h

749
01:06:29,460 --> 01:06:34,800
I'm going to be 53 this year and this month and my\h
whole life I've been flying and it could be over\h\h

750
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:40,560
in a snap of finger The Stroke of a pen yeah\h
stroke pen do you still love it oh yeah I love\h\h

751
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:46,320
flying I fly every day I flew yesterday I'm flying\h
tomorrow and Monday and it's great I love flying\h\h

752
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:51,900
I went and actually bought a GoPro and uh so\h
now when I fly at night especially at night\h\h

753
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:58,740
um I put it on the glare Shield of the uh of\h
the Gulf Stream and I just record and I'll go\h\h

754
01:06:58,740 --> 01:07:02,940
back through when I have time and start looking\h
you think about this how many pilots in the air\h\h

755
01:07:03,780 --> 01:07:08,100
spend more time looking inside the cockpit\h
than looking outside oh yes big problem yeah\h\h

756
01:07:08,100 --> 01:07:13,680
we just guys break out their iPads and you know\h
they're either watching movies or you know reading\h\h

757
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:17,760
magazines or they're doing something other than\h
looking outside because you know once you get up\h\h

758
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:23,040
in the class Alpha there's nothing up there you're\h
on air traffic control the autopilot's on nobody's\h\h

759
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:29,640
out there looking in the sky how many things are\h
actually out there that they aren't seeing exactly\h\h

760
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:34,380
I'll be right next to the aircraft and you don't\h
have that great of a view right you can see maybe\h\h

761
01:07:34,380 --> 01:07:38,940
like five percent of the sky through your window\h
and yes it's the five percent you care about in\h\h

762
01:07:38,940 --> 01:07:43,140
front of you but uh there's a lot of space that\h
you absolutely have no visibility you think about\h\h

763
01:07:43,140 --> 01:07:47,160
how many airplanes just commercial forget the\h
private I mean private corporate just think about\h\h

764
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,760
how many airliners are out there flying around\h
especially at night because if you're going to\h\h

765
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:54,840
see something that has lights on it you're going\h
to see it at night right think about how many\h\h

766
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:59,220
airlines are out there flying tonight all over\h
the world and if all those Pilots were able to\h\h

767
01:07:59,220 --> 01:08:03,120
actually have some kind of system that would\h
actually monitor the skies or flying around\h\h

768
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:08,820
that would be incredible you'd be able to see so\h
many things wow even if they just Incorporated it\h\h

769
01:08:08,820 --> 01:08:12,240
in the aircraft I mean it sounds like I mean it\h
sounds like you're seeing these things you know\h\h

770
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:18,180
somewhat consistent basis I mean over the us right\h
now riddells are being seeing all the all the time\h\h

771
01:08:18,180 --> 01:08:24,180
right now in fact right now last night at 11 45\h
at night I got a text message from a friend of\h\h

772
01:08:24,180 --> 01:08:31,560
mine a marine uh F-18 pilot that flies for FedEx\h
and he sent me a text message at 11 45 last night\h\h

773
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:40,380
saying he saw some more uh orbs I think is what he\h
called them light orbs um over Northern Canada so\h\h

774
01:08:41,820 --> 01:08:46,620
how are we going to continue to gather data\h
about this for me is kind of a concern because\h\h

775
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,780
what's the most likely tool everyone's going\h
to use inside the cockpit is going to be their\h\h

776
01:08:51,780 --> 01:08:54,720
phone they're going to want to try to take\h
a photo and of course that's not the best\h\h

777
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:58,740
sensor for doing this but that's what you\h
have with you absolutely what I learned\h\h

778
01:08:58,740 --> 01:09:04,140
in all out of all this is the the phone\h
is not the best camera system to capture\h\h

779
01:09:04,140 --> 01:09:09,360
anything there's a lot of anomalies that could\h
happen with the IR camera IR strobe autofocus\h\h

780
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:15,120
um so that's why I went out I bought a GoPro that\h
I could Mount and it captures everything it's got\h\h

781
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:21,300
a pretty wide lens and it's the quality of\h
the videos pretty good and it'll videotape\h\h

782
01:09:21,300 --> 01:09:27,780
them adjust a vast majority of the sky that I'd\h
like to later go back and look at um since your\h\h

783
01:09:27,780 --> 01:09:32,220
cockpit duties a lot of times brings you in the\h
cockpit you're changing frequencies and altitudes\h\h

784
01:09:32,220 --> 01:09:38,700
and air speeds and programming the FMS so you\h
can't have your eyes out all the time but if\h\h

785
01:09:38,700 --> 01:09:43,620
for other Pilots of everybody to keep their eyes\h
out and not focus on inside the cockpit you know\h\h

786
01:09:43,620 --> 01:09:48,060
when you can when you're when you're up in cruise\h
is where you're going to do it there's going to be\h\h

787
01:09:48,060 --> 01:09:53,280
a lot more sightings a lot of people are going to\h
see things that are explainable and unexplainable\h\h

788
01:09:54,480 --> 01:09:59,820
um and it would be nice if they had some kind\h
of uh video recording system that they could\h\h

789
01:09:59,820 --> 01:10:07,680
Implement on aircraft to record every aspect\h
of the flight at all times I know they have the\h\h

790
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:12,780
Black Box why can't they have some kind of video\h
that records actual video front yeah absolutely\h\h

791
01:10:12,780 --> 01:10:18,360
a widescreen panoramic something that would\h
record something outside of the aircraft that\h\h

792
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:22,680
would be great at the promise the pilots only\h
faces forward though correct Pilots only face\h\h

793
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:26,520
forward but that doesn't that doesn't that's what\h
they want to look anyways yeah well what happens\h\h

794
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:31,020
if they put something on the aircraft what if\h
they put a little Dome on top of the aircraft\h\h

795
01:10:31,020 --> 01:10:36,540
with the with a camera recording system on it you\h
know you'd be really interesting to see forget\h\h

796
01:10:37,380 --> 01:10:42,780
all the Unexplained evenly explained just think\h
of what kind of safety aspect that would have on\h\h

797
01:10:43,440 --> 01:10:48,720
on the aviation industry in general from\h
everything from being able to see things\h\h

798
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:57,540
that uh close aircraft encounters to um a weather\h
phenomena to I mean you name it there's so many\h\h

799
01:10:57,540 --> 01:11:02,220
different aspects that they could use that to sell\h
the data as a safety is something for safety I\h\h

800
01:11:02,220 --> 01:11:07,620
mean you never know right so the way I understand\h
it now if a commercial pilot at a major airline\h\h

801
01:11:07,620 --> 01:11:13,740
was to pull their phone out and say take a video\h
of some strange object they were seeing or light\h\h

802
01:11:14,940 --> 01:11:18,900
um that they would be breaking rules most\h
likely because they're not supposed to have\h\h

803
01:11:18,900 --> 01:11:23,460
your own personal devices while you're flying is\h
that correct yeah the FAA set that standard that\h\h

804
01:11:23,460 --> 01:11:28,200
you're not supposed to have your phone you know\h
supposed to be in airplane mode but uh if it's a\h\h

805
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:32,340
distraction they're worried about it just you\h
know interfering with navigational systems and\h\h

806
01:11:32,340 --> 01:11:37,500
it's up it actually comes down and far State it's\h
the actually pilot in command of the aircraft who\h\h

807
01:11:37,500 --> 01:11:44,040
makes that determination but Airlines if they have\h
a rule um you have to follow the rules set by the\h\h

808
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,700
airlines by the air carrier that you signed\h
for so they just don't want people in there\h\h

809
01:11:47,700 --> 01:11:52,140
filming I mean you're open yourself for lawsuits\h
right if something happens so I can understand\h\h

810
01:11:52,140 --> 01:11:57,840
the companies wanting to protect themselves\h
and their investors um from anything coming\h\h

811
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:02,700
out of a video that might be shown inside of a\h
cockpit something where people could open up a\h\h

812
01:12:02,700 --> 01:12:07,920
lawsuit against them I understand that portion\h
of it do you actively instruct right now yes\h\h

813
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:13,920
do you talk to your students about this I do not\h
I don't talk to my students they have enough on\h\h

814
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:19,800
their plate to worry about with uh learning the\h
aircraft learning aerodynamics and you know weight\h\h

815
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:26,160
balance performance uh I didn't I wouldn't want to\h
I hate to use the word burden them but I wouldn't\h\h

816
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:30,720
want to put any undue stress on that so it's\h
pretty new new pilots it's brand new pilots I\h\h

817
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:35,040
do Train Commercial I do at you know trained guys\h
for ATP and stuff but you know when you get into\h\h

818
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:41,820
into higher uh ratings Airline transport pilot\h
which all Airline transport people I've got one\h\h

819
01:12:42,780 --> 01:12:49,140
um you know those those Pilots they have the\h
the bandwidth to actually yeah understand what\h\h

820
01:12:49,140 --> 01:12:53,040
you're talking about and I talk about it with\h
guys in the Gulf Stream Gulfstream Community\h\h

821
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:57,360
other guys in fact after my experience\h
what happened off the coast of California\h\h

822
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:05,820
um the actual lead they call it a cam um certified\h
aircraft manager on Twilight 670. him and I were\h\h

823
01:13:05,820 --> 01:13:11,760
talking uh and when he was a he used to fly I\h
believe it was p3s in the Navy yeah he actually\h\h

824
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:17,760
saw they were sent to intercept uh something in\h
his P3 and they went out to intercept something\h\h

825
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:24,300
and uh he said he saw some stuff that uh couldn't\h
couldn't understand what it was and then he also\h\h

826
01:13:24,300 --> 01:13:29,460
saw something in Pensacola Florida that was\h
doing Maneuvers at such high altitude and uh\h\h

827
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,420
he said there's no way it could have been anybody\h
inside it because they would have been killed\h\h

828
01:13:33,420 --> 01:13:38,640
because of the amount of g-forces that would have\h
been pulled so I told him what I had seen you know\h\h

829
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:42,900
what happened on his aircraft because he wasn't\h
on the aircraft he was with another contractor\h\h

830
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:52,260
um not three weeks later he saw it he saw\h
something like that over uh I believe it was\h\h

831
01:13:52,260 --> 01:13:56,820
like Ohio or something something unexplainable\h
or something visually representative of what

832
01:13:57,660 --> 01:14:06,060
That's Falling in reference with a lot of the\h
stuff the airline guy saw how common do you\h\h

833
01:14:06,060 --> 01:14:10,500
really just think this is just not even just the\h
last eight months even but just this whole topic\h\h

834
01:14:10,500 --> 01:14:17,820
just for Pilots I mean you know just uh honestly\h
if I were to if I were to my own personal uh\h\h

835
01:14:17,820 --> 01:14:22,260
guess would be it's been happening for years and\h
years and it's been hovering ever since we started\h\h

836
01:14:22,260 --> 01:14:28,860
flying um but people just don't report it people\h
don't see it people don't look out at the cockpit\h\h

837
01:14:28,860 --> 01:14:34,500
all the time because I said when I made my initial\h
report and I talked to the news I told them\h\h

838
01:14:35,100 --> 01:14:40,800
second pilot starts seeing this\h
it's like walking onto a stage to\h\h

839
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:44,340
give a speech if you walk into a stage\h
in the audience and there's 500 people\h\h

840
01:14:44,340 --> 01:14:48,240
out there how many people feel comfortable\h
walking out in the Spotlight by themselves\h\h

841
01:14:49,500 --> 01:14:56,460
very few people but you put 10 15 20 people out\h
there other people have no issue walking out\h\h

842
01:14:56,460 --> 01:15:01,800
amongst the crowd because now the spotlight's not\h
on them right it's not spotlighted on them it's on\h\h

843
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:06,300
everybody and they can hide behind people or you\h
know it makes them feel more comfortable they're\h\h

844
01:15:06,300 --> 01:15:13,260
not being spotlighted so I think once we get rid\h
of the stigma of people being made fun of or you\h\h

845
01:15:13,260 --> 01:15:18,360
know they understand that they're doing it for\h
the better cause of Aviation for safety let's\h\h

846
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:23,580
all Focus let's focus on all on safety if they do\h
it better for to better the cause of safety and\h\h

847
01:15:23,580 --> 01:15:27,960
Aviation I think there's going to be a lot more\h
pilots that come out and talk about it I guarantee\h\h

848
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:31,560
there's a lot of Pilots have seen things they\h
just don't want to talk about it they talk about\h\h

849
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:34,920
in their small little groups but they'll never go\h
public with it because they don't want people to\h\h

850
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:40,440
think they're crazy and there really hasn't been\h
any like process or infrastructure or anyone to\h\h

851
01:15:40,440 --> 01:15:43,920
really talk about it too right I mean from my\h
perspective at least when I was speaking about\h\h

852
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:49,380
it first a lot of it was very much entertainment\h
based or you know it was just it was difficult to\h\h

853
01:15:49,380 --> 01:15:57,360
really have people who hadn't considered it look\h
at it agnostically in a sense and so that's really\h\h

854
01:15:57,360 --> 01:16:01,020
what I think we're going to be able to do here\h
and my hope is that we'll have more pilots on\h\h

855
01:16:01,020 --> 01:16:05,820
like yourself and you know you're welcome to pass\h
an invitation we're going to be looking to have\h\h

856
01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:11,160
um you know fighter pilots commercial pilots\h
General General aviators here and you know I want\h\h

857
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:14,940
to hear more of these stories and we'll discuss\h
them seriously yeah to have a forum where they can\h\h

858
01:16:14,940 --> 01:16:19,020
actually go and feel comfortable talking that's\h
the key or they're not going to get ridiculed\h\h

859
01:16:19,020 --> 01:16:22,920
that's going to be the key to everything because\h
everybody wants their story to be heard no matter\h\h

860
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:29,220
what it is how small how big everybody has the\h
the desire to have their story heard regardless\h\h

861
01:16:29,220 --> 01:16:34,440
of what it is yeah and but people don't like I\h
said I want to be ridiculed for it me I don't care\h\h

862
01:16:34,440 --> 01:16:39,960
I'm not I came out and talked about this because\h
I made the call over Air Traffic Control strictly\h\h

863
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:46,800
because I'm doing my my due diligence and my my\h
uh requirements as a pilot hey see something say\h\h

864
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:51,180
something doesn't it that's like what everybody\h
says right see something say something and then\h\h

865
01:16:51,180 --> 01:16:55,740
uh it just sort of spiraled out of control when I\h
started getting radar tapes and people calling me\h\h

866
01:16:55,740 --> 01:17:01,500
and the jaytalk calling me and um I'm glad it\h
happened that way because we've got all these\h\h

867
01:17:01,500 --> 01:17:05,940
other Pilots that had seen it and now they're\h
coming forward and talking about it because\h\h

868
01:17:05,940 --> 01:17:10,560
they didn't feel comfortable doing it before I\h
took one person the guinea pig to step out in\h\h

869
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:15,060
the spotlight and now everybody else is jumping\h
on the stage which is great I'm glad for that\h\h

870
01:17:15,060 --> 01:17:20,460
well I'd like to extend an invitation I think the\h
FAA controllers as well as Pilots to come out and\h\h

871
01:17:20,460 --> 01:17:25,080
talk about this I've reached out to them and I'll\h
continue to reach out to them we're trying to uh\h\h

872
01:17:25,620 --> 01:17:30,000
trying to get them to come forward um it'd\h
be great if they could be protected under\h\h

873
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:33,720
the Whistler blower act I don't know why it\h
would have to be a whistleblower act but it\h\h

874
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:37,320
would be great if they could just to come out and\h
make them feel more comfortable absolutely you\h\h

875
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:41,100
don't want somebody to lose their career over over\h
something like that they're in a very much kind of\h\h

876
01:17:41,100 --> 01:17:45,300
similar track as Pilots as far as their career huh\h
a little bit ranked based well they work right for\h\h

877
01:17:45,300 --> 01:17:49,740
the federal government right air traffic control\h
yeah very much so yeah so they can be terminated\h\h

878
01:17:49,740 --> 01:17:55,740
for cause at any time for anything we don't know\h
what kind of contracts they sign or what kind of\h\h

879
01:17:55,740 --> 01:17:59,340
security clearances they have to sign it could\h
be like the military right we're not supposed\h\h

880
01:17:59,340 --> 01:18:04,020
to talk about certain things when we leave\h
the military so they could be under the same\h\h

881
01:18:04,020 --> 01:18:09,960
same guidelines with the FAA but you know the\h
faas I can't say anything bad about the FAA\h\h

882
01:18:10,860 --> 01:18:17,940
um the federal government they just you know\h
they're they're not proactive they're reactive\h\h

883
01:18:17,940 --> 01:18:21,480
right they don't do anything they only do\h
something when they have to do something\h\h

884
01:18:21,480 --> 01:18:25,680
that's how it is you know in the Navy that's\h
how we write our emergency procedures you know\h\h

885
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:28,920
and this is a little bit different tact you\h
know trying to solve the problem before you\h\h

886
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:35,280
know an aircraft is taken down um yeah it's about\h
being proactive and this conversation that we're\h\h

887
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:39,120
having now I think is really one of the first\h
steps in being more proactive about this and\h\h

888
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:44,400
so you know thank you for coming here today Mark\h
and you know being proactive and standing up and\h\h

889
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:48,660
and doing what's right in my opinion it was my\h
pleasure you know I help me coming out talking\h\h

890
01:18:48,660 --> 01:18:53,340
to you about this will get a lot encourage a lot\h
more pilots to come forward and and tell us what\h\h

891
01:18:53,340 --> 01:19:00,300
they've seen or experienced or uh uh regardless of\h
whether it's something that they might know what\h\h

892
01:19:00,300 --> 01:19:06,360
it is or humans love mysteries right they love\h
to solve the mystery so there's not Mysteries\h\h

893
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:13,500
out there you know we want it solved and it until\h
everybody cooperates we're not going to solve the\h\h

894
01:19:13,500 --> 01:19:17,760
mystery yeah one of the things that we're going to\h
be doing with this podcast as well in the future\h\h

895
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:22,740
after we've brought on more pilots is going to be\h
exploring different Technologies uh that might be\h\h

896
01:19:22,740 --> 01:19:28,020
useful in the future things that are available\h
off the shelf if you will that perhaps could be\h\h

897
01:19:28,020 --> 01:19:33,480
modified so that we can work to build sensors\h
and build technology that are going to be able\h\h

898
01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:39,660
to move the conversation forward proactively so\h
we we intend this to be an active conversation uh\h\h

899
01:19:39,660 --> 01:19:44,160
where we don't want to just you know go our\h
own ways after the conversation we want to\h\h

900
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:50,820
um we want to be able to take the great ideas\h
and the new data that we have and go do something\h\h

901
01:19:50,820 --> 01:19:56,340
interesting with it so you have applied to join\h
the the integration and Outreach committee the\h\h

902
01:19:56,340 --> 01:20:01,200
UAP integration Outreach committee at the aiaa\h
so there's also a number of other Pilots that\h\h

903
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:06,840
have witnessed things just like this uh both uh\h
in the military and the commercial world that\h\h

904
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:12,120
have joined that organization or to help\h
advise on policy and Reporting mechanisms\h\h

905
01:20:13,260 --> 01:20:19,680
I've been invited uh the third week in January to\h
Fort Lauderdale to attend a meeting with NASA's\h\h

906
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:26,580
study team UAP study team and a senior member\h
of the FAA will be there so perhaps it'll be\h\h

907
01:20:26,580 --> 01:20:31,200
an opportunity for more clarity so there are\h
there are existing trusted resources for safety\h\h

908
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:36,240
reporting within the military commercial and NASA\h
at the end of the day holds the Authority for\h\h

909
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:41,460
Aviation safety generally in the United States\h
and there are trusted programs that they've\h\h

910
01:20:41,460 --> 01:20:45,840
established so we know how to do this right this\h
isn't something we don't know how to do we do this\h\h

911
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:51,600
uh every day in this country report safety hazards\h
so it's really just about updating procedures uh\h\h

912
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:57,420
it's it's a shame that our current procedures\h
point us out to external just organizations to\h\h

913
01:20:57,420 --> 01:21:03,360
report this according to current instructions if\h
if you do see a quote-unquote UFO in the uh in\h\h

914
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:08,460
the manuals now you have if you should like to\h
report it you don't have to you know desire or\h\h

915
01:21:08,460 --> 01:21:14,160
no necessity to do so you can report to external\h
organizations and there's several of them right\h\h

916
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:17,640
so the data is scattered and it's broken up\h
and none of is official anymore so really\h\h

917
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:25,140
there is no practical uh method for reporting\h
this as it is right now that's correct yeah\h\h